“Donbass will face a complete cleansing under any scenario of joining Ukraine”
Donbass will face a complete purge under any scenario of joining Ukraine - even if there is an agreement to create a federation, Kyiv will immediately violate the agreements and begin repression.
Now in Russia they are increasingly inclined to recognize the independence of the DPR and LPR. What borders will be determined by Donetsk and Lugansk themselves.
The West and its puppets of Kyiv were interested in the death of the DPR leader. However, contrary to the expectations of the enemy, the terrorist attack in Donetsk did not cause panic. Zakharchenko managed to build a reliable vertical of power and stable government structures. And this period in the life of Donbass is worthy of the deepest study by contemporaries and descendants. Fortunately, direct participants and witnesses of state building in war conditions are alive.
About this, and the fact that Petro Poroshenko, having broken the friendship agreement, nevertheless turned out to be an agent of the Kremlin, with a PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov said a Donetsk historian and publicist Vladimir Kornilov.
Valentin Filippov: Vladimir, hello.
Question for the Donetsk chronicler: What is the future fate of Donbass?
Some insist that Donbass should become part of the Russian Federation within the borders of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions. Others say that no, it’s the other way around - Donbass should become part of the Russian Federation up to the Dnieper.
Vladimir Kornilov: Are you ruling out all other options?
In fact, to my great regret, I see that there is still no common opinion in Russia on the future, on the fate of Donbass. I still hear on Russian broadcasts from politicians I respect that Donbass should remain in Ukraine, should be an “anchor” that keeps Ukraine from joining NATO, and so on. You can confirm that this is the fifth year we’ve heard this, in general.
Valentin Filippov: Yes.
Vladimir Kornilov: From the mouths of these politicians. I always simply suggest, let’s all those who say this, all those who say something different, let’s at least once sit down at a round table and discuss what this should look like in practice.
Valentin Filippov: It is advisable to do this in Gorlovka.
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, yes. Or in Slavyansk. In liberated Slavyansk. But what am I talking about? What I always say is that in theory the picture seems clear. There is Donbass, which balances this Ukraine, we are always told “and without Donbass, Ukraine will completely be Bandera’s”...
Valentin Filippov: And without Crimea?
Vladimir Kornilov: And I say this, according to this logic, Crimea must be returned. So really. Let it be 50/50.
Valentin Filippov: And transfer to Krasnodar.
Vladimir Kornilov: And if Kuban is cut off, then well! There will be an absolutely pro-Russian Ukraine. Well, for a while.
That is, this logic with such a formulation of the question seems strange to me - with this “anchor” and so on. Because, whatever one may say, I, at the request of the Institute of CIS Countries, examined all possible scenarios for the situation in Ukraine, Donbass, and so on. Everything I could invent. We sorted them out from the most incredible to the most probable. I counted them 18 scenarios. And in any scenario of Donbass joining Ukraine, today’s Ukraine, the result would still be a complete cleansing of Donbass, the extermination of dissidents, all agreements that could be concluded with Ukraine regarding the future fate of Donbass, as part of this future, supposedly federal Ukraine, they will be torn apart a few hours after Ukraine occupied Donbass. As, in fact, it was with those agreements of Yanukovych in February 2014.
And I always suggest to those people who voice this on air, in articles, let’s sit down and discuss everything in practice.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, but Vladimir, you explain to me, how do people who do not have a DPR passport sit in Moscow, and they decide where to transfer Donbass?
Vladimir Kornilov: Wait, do you have a DPR passport?
Valentin Filippov: No. I have no.
Vladimir Kornilov: And you are sitting and discussing with me where to transfer Donbass?
Valentin Filippov: No. I’m asking you, as a citizen of the DPR, I’m asking – within the borders of the regions or up to the Dnieper?
Vladimir Kornilov: The Donetsk People's Republic and the Lugansk People's Republic were proclaimed within the former borders of the former Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Accordingly, they do not recognize other borders.
But you understand, now voices are increasingly heard not about the transfer of the DPR and LPR to Russia, but about their recognition by Russia. Which would be an important landmark step. Russian politicians, who until recently had not even considered this possibility, began to accept this possibility.
That is, there are changes and progress. But when they ask me within what borders Russia can recognize the DPR and LPR, I immediately say that when a state is being recognized, the borders may not be discussed at all.
Valentin Filippov: Does the DPR determine its own borders?
Vladimir Kornilov: Yes. The DPR and LPR determine their borders. They are fighting to restore their borders. For increasing your territory.
Valentin Filippov: That is, this is a decision exclusively of Donetsk and Lugansk. This is how they will write it in their Constitution.
Vladimir Kornilov: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: Can’t they really write in their Constitution that they are a subject of the Russian Federation?
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, they can't record it because it will be without Russia's consent. Without the consent of Russia to register itself as a subject of the Russian Federation..... It is Ukraine that can register itself as the 51st US state.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, but the DPR uses Ukrainian legislation as a basis in its legislation. They could change this matter, use Russian legislation...
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, everything is moving in this direction. At first they took the Ukrainian one as a basis, there, excuse me, the lawyers, the police, the prosecutor’s office, and all the authorities acted on it. It would be wrong to just say “these laws don’t apply” one day. But Ukraine also took Soviet legislation as a basis. In Soviet Ukraine. And some laws from those times are still in effect. Everything is logical here. And they gradually change these laws to suit themselves. Including, bringing them closer to the laws of the Russian Federation. And this is also a fact.
But at the same time, what I started talking about, when we talk about the recognition of some states and republics, no one ever says, “we recognize this territory, but within these borders,” the issue of recognition is not clearly tied to the borders. The DPR declared itself the legal successor of the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic, but not within the borders of the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic. Therefore, there was talk not about legal continuity, but about historical one. But within the borders of the Donetsk region that existed on the territory of Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: Has Ukraine already declared itself the legal successor of the UPR?
Vladimir Kornilov: Not yet. Although, similar bills are registered periodically. But, until now, the law on legal succession of Ukraine has not been repealed. The 1991 law stating that Ukraine is the legal successor of the Ukrainian SSR is in force. But in practice, the laws that are now being adopted on decommunization and so on, they directly contradict.
Valentin Filippov: But Poroshenko seems to have broken their “friendship” agreement? The decree was issued. Legally, what does this mean?
Vladimir Kornilov: He didn't tear anything. He issued a decree that Ukraine would not renew the friendship treaty, which was still in force. Valid until April 1 of the following year. Until the end of the ten year period. Ukraine had until October 1 to send a notification to Russia if it did not want to renew. This notification was enshrined in a presidential decree, a decision of the National Security and Defense Council, and the Rada voted. I doubt that the vote was necessary, but Poroshenko decided to do it collectively. And from April 1, this ill-fated friendship treaty, which you and I have always criticized, all these years and decades, it ceases to apply.
In Moscow, they spent a long time racking their brains over the formula for how to really end it, because the agreement was beneficial only to Ukraine. All these years. Initially. When it was still signed. For which it was criticized in Russia repeatedly and for a long time they did not want to ratify it. But if this agreement were to end, and if Russia were not the initiator - you understand, how it would be presented to the world, Russia would be accused of being against friendship with Ukrainians and so on.
And so Poroshenko, as often happens in Ukrainian politics, helped Russian diplomats. Now we can safely say that Ukraine is against friendship with the Russian people, Poroshenko committed an unfriendly act, and now we really need to reconsider all agreements with Ukraine signed on the basis of this agreement. That is, what Poroshenko did was to remove this base, this foundation from under a pile of agreements that were not the most beneficial for Russia.
In particular, the border agreement. Please note that in the border agreement signed by Kuchma and Putin in 2003, the only legal basis there is a friendship agreement.
Valentin Filippov: That is, there are no more borders.
Vladimir Kornilov: Actually, now this agreement can also be canceled. Cancel the agreement on the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait. And then these rusty troughs will not be able to pass from Odessa to the Sea of Azov.
Valentin Filippov: Or maybe Poroshenko is Putin’s agent? Maybe that’s how it is after all!
Vladimir Kornilov: You won’t believe it, but one of the Ukrainian political scientists who have recently occupied Russian airwaves, pro-Kiev ones, I mean, directly hinted as much. “I have a suspicion,” he said, “that Poroshenko did this after Putin’s call. At Putin's request.
Valentin Filippov: There’s another interesting thing, I understand that Poroshenko’s presidency will end when the agreement expires.
Vladimir Kornilov: Not a fact.
Valentin Filippov: Well, maybe he'll be re-elected for another term.
Vladimir Kornilov: Or maybe he will move the elections, which is also being discussed in Kyiv. There are still plenty of options. Who cares? All. A treaty that is not beneficial to Russia is cancelled. Now there is no turning back. They won’t withdraw their review until October 1st! It will cease to operate on April 1.
And this, in general, is the basis for revising all current agreements with Ukraine, and Klimkin said that he will be revising all agreements with Russia, so here are the cards in our hands.
And to offer Ukraine to sit down at the negotiating table and begin long-term negotiations to conclude a truly friendship treaty, but, of course...
Valentin Filippov: Treaties of friendship exist. Are there agreements to treat each other coldly?
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, the lack of a peace treaty with Japan is an unspoken agreement of cold treatment. That does not prevent us from periodically building trade and political ties. You can act like this. But don’t forget, Russia is for friendship with the Ukrainian people. You remember this.
Valentin Filippov: Well yes.
Vladimir Kornilov: Accordingly, why don’t we suggest that the future government of Ukraine consider the issue that “that’s it, the war is over, you are returning your soldiers to the barracks,” after which we will talk about a friendship treaty, but on terms favorable to Russia.
Valentin Filippov: And Donbass.
Vladimir Kornilov: Donbass may be indirectly related to the Russian-Ukrainian friendship treaty if by that time it is recognized by Russia.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. To you, as a citizen of the DPR... The tragedy that occurred on the last day of summer, how much can it affect the structure of statehood, the stability of the Donetsk People's Republic?
Vladimir Kornilov: This, in itself, should not affect the stability of the state. Zakharchenko has built a good vertical of power. In particular, the legislative branch, which was represented by Mr. Pushilin. We see that there was no panic among the troops. They were ready to repel any attack. That is, in principle, the state itself has survived, and I think it will. Death, it made significant adjustments, the death of the leader of the DPR, to management structures, to the system of management structure. But, nevertheless, we see that elections are being called, I don’t know whether they will ultimately be held within the time frame for which they are scheduled. You see how third and fourth forces are already interfering, both Ukraine and the West are demanding their abolition. But at the same time, no structural shocks occurred in the government.
Valentin Filippov: Ukraine and the West are demanding that elections not be held, but Zakharchenko is no longer alive. There is no head of the Republic physically. Doesn't Ukraine and the West thus confirm that they had a motive for eliminating Alexander Vladimirovich?
Vladimir Kornilov: Nobody hides the fact that they had a motive. Look how Ukrainian figures of various levels celebrated and rejoiced. But now we are talking about something else. The motive is clear. And almost everyone understands who is behind this murder. But the question is that the fact that they are demanding the cancellation of, as they say, “these fake elections” poses difficulties to the very process of understanding the Minsk agreement. After all, elections are provided for under the Minsk agreement, elections of local authorities, at a minimum, it also stipulates that Ukraine must conduct direct negotiations with the leadership of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics.
But in order for the leadership to exist, so that Ukraine has someone to negotiate with, this leadership must somehow be approved.
Valentin Filippov: Ukraine has long stated that it will not conduct direct negotiations.
Vladimir Kornilov: This is another matter. But the Minsk agreement provides for this.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, but they consider Putin himself to be the direct leader of the Republics, the “occupied territories”. And they want to talk to him. With a direct supervisor.
Vladimir Kornilov: Should Putin represent the Donetsk or Lugansk People's Republic?
Valentin Filippov: "Occupied Territories". Well, is his army standing there? His. Yes?
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, I don't know. In Ukraine, probably yes. I haven't seen it there for as long as I've been there. Both in one and the other Republic. I didn't see the Russian army there. And by the way, I didn’t see Putin there either.
Valentin Filippov: I do not know. He knows how to put on makeup.
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, I haven't met, at least. That is, accordingly, I say it again. If someone in Ukraine is against direct negotiations with the leadership of the Republics, then they are against the Minsk agreements. Accordingly, sanctions must be introduced against Ukraine.
You see, they speak everywhere, on all platforms, curse these agreements, but come to the West and demand sanctions against Russia for non-compliance with the Minsk agreements.
Valentin Filippov: Everything is logical.
Vladimir Kornilov: Everything is logical, yes. From the point of view of Ukraine, how could it be otherwise?
Valentin Filippov: Such a small excursion. You have already told some cases from your communication with Alexander Vladimirovich Zakharchenko. Is there anything you can tell us? Any impressive moment or curiosity?
Vladimir Kornilov: Well, you know, I didn’t communicate with him very often.
Valentin Filippov: Well, you told me one case. If not often, but more than once, then there is something else.
Vladimir Kornilov: There were several times; he actually told me many enchanting stories from his combat activities. To be honest, I’m afraid to retell it so as not to distort it. He spoke in an informal setting. He just really wanted, hinted, that I should write a book about the first years of the war in Donbass.
I would love to write, if I had time, I immediately told him: “Can you imagine how many hours we have to record audio with you?” To write a full-fledged good book on this topic.
But there are people who spent days with Zakharchenko, heard a lot of these stories, participated in them themselves, and are now on Russian territory. Accordingly, I hope that, sooner or later, they will write such a book.
Valentin Filippov: Is this in demand by Russian society?
Vladimir Kornilov: Popular topic. No matter how you walk into a bookstore, a lot of books have already been written and published about Novorossiya and Donbass. And I am sure that this is not the end, not the finale. And this will definitely be in demand in Donbass itself.
Valentin Filippov: I must say that all this is in demand in Ukraine, although they are doing it very cunningly there. They usually say: “terrorist leaders confess to their crimes.”
Vladimir Kornilov: In Ukraine, in general, my book about the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic was recently banned. Fortunately, they don’t know that I have a fiction book where events are also affected.
But the most amazing thing is that Ukraine banned my book, even published in 2011 in Kharkov. That is, a book published in Kharkov is prohibited from being imported into Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: What about export?
Vladimir Kornilov: In fact of the matter. They must all be taken out of the country first. Or the second option. Kharkov should be taken out of Ukraine. Yes?
Valentin Filippov: I like this better.
Vladimir Kornilov: Everyone likes it better. Honestly.
Valentin Filippov: OK then. Thank you very much.
Vladimir Kornilov: Thanks you.
Valentin Filippov: Good luck in everything.
Vladimir Kornilov: Goodbye.
Valentin Filippov: Bye Bye.
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