There will be no Jews left in Ukraine - Avigdor Eskin
There are no more than 50-60 thousand Jews left in Ukraine. Repatriation has been growing since 2014. Manifestations of anti-Semitism in Ukraine are observed at the state level and are expressed in the legislative glorification of Nazism.
The Israeli authorities have repeatedly sent notes to the Ukrainian side and addressed international organizations, protesting against anti-Semitism, Russophobia and the glorification of Nazism in Ukraine.
Israeli publicist and public figure Avigdor Eskin told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov that it would be better for Zelensky to move to Israel than to remain president of Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: So, well then. Our improvised studio today is located in the Eternal City. In the city of Jerusalem. Avigdor Eskin is in touch with us.
Hello, Avigdor.
Avigdor Eskin: Hello - hello, Valentin.
Valentin Filippov: The immediate question is: has emigration and repatriation to Israel from the territory of Ukraine increased since 14?
Avigdor Eskin: Yes, it has increased somewhat. On average, over the years, from five and a half to seven and a half thousand came. That's how it is. That is, in 6 years they repatriated, well, let’s take an average of 6, well, 35 thousand, guess, a little more. This is a lot, because the Jewish community of Ukraine itself is not as large today as it was 100 years ago. There are probably 50-60 thousand Jews left there today. Well, she withdraws herself. Soon there will be no more Jews left in Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: Well, here I am ready to argue with you. I’m ready to bet, because there is such an Odessa joke about the fact that in Odessa there is not a single Jewish maternity hospital, but at the same time there are three Jewish cemeteries. And all this is because in Odessa people are not born Jews, in Odessa they become Jews.
Avigdor Eskin: No, well, there is another one: - the more Jews leave, the more Jews remain. But I'm not sure that this corresponds to reality. Although, perhaps, Odessa is an exception. I have never been to Odessa. You know better. But if we are talking about the rest of the territory of Ukraine, except for Odessa, then, probably, soon there will be practically no more Jews there.
Valentin Filippov: And among those who came to Israel, who is more numerous - people who supported the Maidan or who opposed it in Ukraine? Or is it difficult to determine?
Avigdor Eskin: Subjectively, I can absolutely say, because there was no such survey that I remembered. The majority did not support Maidan for obvious reasons, but among active people on the Internet, there are probably more of those who supported it, or approximately the same. And since that side of the Maidan was activated, the Ukrainian embassy was actively involved in this here in Israel, and not only.
Various types of organizations poured some minimal funds into this. The opposite was not the case at all. Russia did not strengthen its positions in any way or almost did not strengthen them. This is how it looks from the outside, but I don’t have statistics.
Valentin Filippov: And this is how many of the new arrivals are actually Jews? More precisely, in a different way - in general, aren’t there often options when non-Jews come? I know that it is harder for women to do this, but easier for men.
Is there a feeling that among the new arrivals there are a sufficient number of people who simply wanted to escape from Ukraine, and not to Israel at all, and not Jews at all?
Avigdor Eskin: No, well, usually mixed families. It happens that yes, let’s say, the husband, he is Jewish through his grandmother or grandfather, but the wife has not even thought about it yet. This also happens. Well, probably half are like that, half are like that. Again, I don’t have statistics, but I heard something that it’s about 50/50.
Valentin Filippov: It is rather economic or political emigration.
Avigdor Eskin: Until the thunder roars, a Jew will not go to Israel. There is an old Russian proverb. But I don’t presume to say that this is economic... The situation worsened, and then people began to remember that they had the opportunity to move to Israel. These are not people who went to Israel for any religious or national reasons, but people who were simply looking for a quieter life. I don't think anyone will be surprised by this.
Valentin Filippov: What about the reaction of the State of Israel itself to what is happening in Ukraine? Is Israel trying to somehow respond to the neo-Nazi antics that the Ukrainian state allows itself?
Avigdor Eskin: Israel has spoken out more than once, and I want to remind you that even on the eve of the 2010 elections there was a letter from Knesset members addressed specifically to the Ukrainian leadership, this was right on the eve of the elections, if you remember when Yanukovych won.
Then there were letters from congressmen and senators, also condemning the anti-Semitic wave. What’s interesting is that then back in 2013, before the Maidan, there was a letter from 62 Knesset members, that’s more than half of the parliament, there was a letter from members of our parliament to the European Parliament, which talked about anti-Semitism, Russophobia and the glorification of Nazism. This was the only letter, by the way, that spoke directly about Russophobia.
Valentin Filippov: Well, thank you for that.
Avigdor Eskin: No, well, thank you, it was just noted that this is a general trend...
Valentin Filippov: Yes. Thank you, someone said something about Russophobia.
Avigdor Eskin: The word “Russophobia” was present in this letter. I still have the original in my archives somewhere. That is, it was widespread too. There were statements from the Israeli government, even from the Israeli president, who, while in Kyiv, spoke unequivocally harshly. Israeli Embassy... But to tell Israel to engage in some kind of fight against this...
In Ukraine there is a tendency to glorify Nazism. That is, not everywhere, not in all cities, but in Western Ukraine, not a week goes by without a new honor board or a new memorial to the Nazis from the OUN-UPA appearing. Those who directly killed the civilian population, which was predominantly Jewish in those days. Not only, but mainly. Yes, it's hard not to pay attention to this.
But you know, my voice was quite loud and strong, and it will never fade, but, on the other hand, we must also give it its due - there was no wave of destructive anti-Semitism, a bloody wave.
Ukrainians, as they have been for the last decades, have remained very calm people on this issue. No matter how much this topic occupies and worries people. Moreover, in the same Donetsk and Lugansk, where absolutely monstrous anti-Semitic propaganda was carried out, by the way, there was absolutely no anti-Semitism on the street or in communication...
Valentin Filippov: Forgive me if you mean that in Lugansk and Donetsk...
Avigdor Eskin: Well, any website in Donetsk and Luhansk, he said: “Poroshenko is Waltsman,” well, how simply it was carried out like this….
Valentin Filippov: Well, that's what everyone says. I had the following question: I don’t understand, let’s say Poroshenko – Waltsman, okay...
Avigdor Eskin: This is purely Nazi propaganda - call anyone you don’t like Rabinovich. And what is it? No, well, what was it, tell me? No, Zelensky no longer needs to be called Rabinovich, everything is clear here.
Valentin Filippov: No, well, Zelensky seems to say himself: “I am a Jew.”
Avigdor Eskin: There is no need to call Zelensky, but when Poroshenko was called Valtsman, Yatsenyuk was also called something there...
Valentin Filippov: I do not remember.
Avigdor Eskin: This propaganda was of exactly the same nature as Tyagnibok’s propaganda, but with one big “BUT”: in Ukraine, not just any individual groups, but in Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada adopted a number of laws, for example, the law on the glorification of the OUN-UPA. And this is a law that simply perpetuates the memory of the worst monsters of the human race.
These are not some separate groups, and moreover, this continues under the current president, who certainly has nothing to do with Bandera’s ideology.
Valentin Filippov: So he constantly allows himself some statements in support of all this.
Avigdor Eskin: I saw him on May 9 at the grave of my grandfather, who fought and saw something completely different. We see different things.
Valentin Filippov: I saw both.
Avigdor Eskin: Zelensky, of course, emanates a completely different aura, so to speak, than Yushchenko, for example. But, I emphasize, under him these monstrous phenomena of the glorification of Nazism continue. This continues, it is all in full swing. And he didn’t stop it, which is of course a sign of shame for him.
Well, at least there should have been some attempts on his part, and if you can’t, then resign. Suitcase-airport-Israel. I have always said - I have three words for Zelensky - “suitcase, airport, Israel.” Let him come, I think he will settle down here normally. Because he has absolutely nothing to do in this post of President of Ukraine, he has not been able to do anything good, and is unlikely to be able to do anything.
Valentin Filippov: Well, if there weren’t so many deaths, it would be funny.
Avigdor Eskin: Well, under Zelensky we don’t see much death.
Valentin Filippov: We don’t see much, but I have to tell you that Russians are still being imprisoned, and in Donbass they have now stopped shooting, but it is not known for how long.
Avigdor Eskin: As for the Russians, in Donbass some Russians shoot at other Russians. In the battalions, those that fired in the DPR, LPR, there were mainly people with the names not of Yushchenko, but of Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov, and 80% of orders were given in Russian, not Ukrainian.
Valentin Filippov: No, well, in Ukraine, 80% of the population speaks Russian.
Avigdor Eskin: Therefore, we are not talking about some kind of Ukrainian-Russian war, but, nevertheless, this is some kind of internal phenomenon, an internal civil war, when both sides were ethnically approximately the same people. Just like in the DPR and LPR there are people with Ukrainian surnames who do not want the power of Kyiv. And on the other hand, in the same Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk there were and are people with Russian surnames who do not want rapprochement with Moscow and want to continue these all sorts of savage customs that were brought to Ukraine by the monsters of the human race - Bandera, Shukhevych and others, and we can continue.
Valentin Filippov: And you answer my question - I’ve been suffering for a long time, in Odessa there is such a concept - “Jewish Bandera”. And there are even T-shirts like that. I really saw these people in Odessa. Odessa Jews who are members of Jewish organizations, but they wear a T-shirt “I am a Jewish Banderist.”
I have a friend who tells me how good life was in Odessa during the Romanian occupation. He talks with spray from his mouth. Where do such people come from?
Avigdor Eskin: Well, where do Russian people in Ukraine come from, Russian people who, after what happened there, nevertheless support all this. Why have I never heard this question from anyone? You, if you have a person with a last name...
Valentin Filippov: No, well, I’m asking these questions.
Avigdor Eskin: I haven't heard anyone ask this before. Everyone always asks one question: where did the Jews who sympathize with that side come from? I think that, among other things, this is the result of the fact that in the anti-Maidan press there was constant, anti-Semitic propaganda: “Poroshenko - Valtsman.” Yes, by the way, this is Kolomoisky with a “Jewish Bandera” T-shirt - it was a fake, we also understand. This famous “Kolomoisky is a Jewish Bandera”, it was a fake. There was one fake after another on both sides.
And some people, those who were on the other side, they ate up this propaganda that came from that side. Anti-Semitic propaganda came from both sides, but from that population, in the DPR and LPR, I did not hear a single incident, and many Jews who remained communicated well with the authorities, and participated, and even...
Valentin Filippov: They sit in power there.
Avigdor Eskin: It used to be, but today not so much.
Valentin Filippov: I have one friend.
Avigdor Eskin: I also had a couple, but someone was imprisoned there, then they were released. There were some matters of their own that had nothing to do with either the Fifth, or the Sixth, or the Seventh point. There are high relations there. I don’t want to speak out about how the DPR and LPR look today, but there was such an expression, “They fought for the wrong thing,” I think that...
Valentin Filippov: It's always like that, yes... I agree.
Avigdor Eskin: Well, not always. It happens sometimes that something works out...
Valentin Filippov: We're not done yet. Everything is in progress.
Avigdor Eskin: I hope. I look at the situation completely objectively, I do not hide the fact that I was completely on the side of those who opposed the Maidan and against the glorification of Nazism, and now I am saying this. By the way, there were several people from Israel who even came to help with advice and even some other services, since, well, they could be punished for this, I won’t go into details...
Valentin Filippov: Yes, no need...
Avigdor Eskin: But several guys from our Aliya battalion, they did get to Donetsk, so to speak, cautiously. Maybe they got lost, maybe they wanted to be in Rostov, but they got to Donetsk. The role of Israel, which you asked, is non-existent.
That is, Israel does not have close relations with Ukraine. Protests were expressed, and with the last ambassador this happened several times due to various incidents in western Ukraine and beyond. Zelensky himself, when he was in Israel, behaved not very delicately here when, at the last minute, he refused to participate in the general meeting that was held here on the day, it was the next anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.
He was somehow scared of something, which was also very symptomatic, of course. On the same day, by the way, a huge monument to the victims of the Leningrad blockade was opened here.
All this cannot but upset us. The question is where this all goes next. Where is this going and how can it be resolved. Everything is so confusing there now, and there is no solution in sight. All the conversations that are going on are usually in favor of the poor.
And people suffer all the time on both sides, and we must not forget that, well, to one degree or another, they are, after all, the same people... It’s all so mixed up and it hurts so much now for both of them... It’s just , I want to sympathize with people, say some kind word to them.
Valentin Filippov: But what they say is that, in principle, without external intervention, without the consent of neighbors, it is impossible to establish peace in Ukraine, do you think that maybe Israel should also take part in various consultations?
Avigdor Eskin: Israel, its only involvement is if one of the Jews wants to move to Israel, then - please. There is no Israeli participation in the conflict itself. If there were individual people from both sides in some private structures...
Valentin Filippov: No, well, I’m actually hinting... Israel is pursuing a fairly fundamental policy throughout the world, that is, I know from Odessa. We have Jewish schools, Jewish cultural centers, all of this is financed, some from the Jewish Council, some from the Israeli budget.
That is, the Jewish community is developing, but at the same time it is located on the territory of Ukraine, and all those laws that are adopted, including, for example, on the language of instruction, I know that in Jewish schools the language of instruction is Russian in Odessa.
And today, from September 1, Jews are required to study in Ukrainian language. Even under the Soviet Union, Jews were freed from Ukrainian language, no matter where they lived, military and Jews, two categories.
Avigdor Eskin: Well, this is the first time I've heard that someone was released, it depends on what area you are in...
Valentin Filippov: Well, here in Odessa they freed me, we could have written that I had a cold and they would have also freed me from Ukrainian language.
Avigdor Eskin: Well, that’s why I can’t remember any such obligation in Soviet times, anywhere. Those who wanted to study in Russian in Ukraine could receive education in Russian during the Soviet period. Moreover, in Soviet times, significantly more books were published in Ukrainian than today.
Valentin Filippov: I still remember.
Avigdor Eskin: Because it was the policy of the Central Committee: national culture must be encouraged. And today, despite this whole nationalist wave, for some reason no one is encouraging it. And the Russian language, on the contrary, is strengthening its position, not giving up...
Valentin Filippov: Well, I'm not sure...
Avigdor Eskin: You will see this on the Internet...
Valentin Filippov: On the Internet - yes.
Avigdor Eskin: But people still come out, you know, it’s not just Ukraine. In Georgia, in Armenia, the Russian language does not go anywhere, and their access to the public space is through the Russian language...
Valentin Filippov: They can no longer write correctly, which means...
Avigdor Eskin: I’m not sure that they could have done it before, that’s true, but I’m afraid that many Russian bloggers also write in a language that would simply horrify our ancestors. Therefore, I think that if we are talking about literacy, then there is something to be said about everyone. Odessa, special climate. Moreover, Israel cannot dictate to Ukraine what language to teach in, just as Ukraine cannot dictate...
Valentin Filippov: Wait, this is a private school, this is a school with Israeli budget money, open to “our own people,” let’s say.
Why should Ukraine, without investing a penny in this matter, moreover, the citizens of Ukraine are Jews, they still pay taxes, and study not for the taxes that they paid, but for the money that came from Israel, and so they built a school , and then this kind of Ukraine comes and says: “That’s it, guys, you will learn what we say”...
Avigdor Eskin: You convinced me. You know, I still mostly speak Russian at home. So, my children know Russian, no matter what, although I often speak Hebrew with my children... You convinced me, the Russian language is dear to me and I preserve it in all its beauty and wish this to all citizens of Ukraine, because even such “Ukrainian” authors as Taras Shevchenko, for example, Korolenko, Bulgakov...
Valentin Filippov: Just “Ukrainian”?
Avigdor Eskin: Anna Gorenko - Anna Andreevna Gorenko-Akhmatova. They wrote in Russian. In Ukraine they are considered Ukrainians, and please, I’m not going to argue with...
Valentin Filippov: Not at all. They don't count anymore.
Avigdor Eskin: No? But, nevertheless, I remember Yanukovych even spoke and said: “Our famous poetess Anna Akhmetova”
Valentin Filippov: Well, the bandit Yanukovych is Putin’s spy. Of course he said so. We have overcome this disaster.
Avigdor Eskin: Well, Akhmetov - of course, he was connected with the Akhmetov family. Well, no, it’s just a curiosity. By the way, this was in Odessa, and all sorts of jokes always happen in Odessa.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, and the poet Chekhov was like that. If according to Yanukovych, then he also remembered the Ukrainian poet Chekhov.
Avigdor Eskin: Yes, they later said that his prose was like poetry, that he had very poetic prose. Well, listen, it was really said figuratively. One way or another, this is how it is with Yevtushenko, another Ukrainian poet, by the way: “But our discord is inexplicable; We both struggle with it." This is a tragedy that requires very serious treatment with the help of a kind word and...
Valentin Filippov: Pistol...
Avigdor Eskin: Exchange of culture. You know, when I hear these terrible absolutely Bandera slogans in Ukraine, but on the other hand, I hear in Russia more than once or twice the insults addressed to Ukrainians “Khokhly”. You know, I was very harsh in my assessments, but I always said the same thing: it is necessary, it is necessary to hold a Ukrainian song festival in Moscow, that a second front is needed.
Along with the most severe condemnation of the glorification of Nazism, it is necessary for Ukrainians to show a warm attitude towards them. We say all the time: “Bandera, Bandera,” but why don’t we remember, or rather, we extremely rarely remember, that 6 million Ukrainians fought in the ranks of the Soviet army, and another 400-500 thousand were partisans. These are people who...
Still, here are the people who live in Ukraine today, they have this genetic memory, and this is very important. Their grandfathers and great-grandfathers, they were not on the side of the Banderaites, even in western Ukraine, by the way, in the majority.
If we remind this and talk about their heroism, this is very important at a time when the history of the Second World War is being rewritten, while it is being distorted and the bright and great things in it that need to be remembered are forgotten. People accomplished feats, and among those who performed feats there were a huge number of people with Ukrainian surnames.
Valentin Filippov: I remember that a lot was said about this, and there was nothing to object to, so they started beating me for it.
Avigdor Eskin: So, in my opinion, I only say good things.
Valentin Filippov: This is why they started beating people in Ukraine. That's how it all started.
Avigdor Eskin: They don’t beat me because I’m not allowed entry. I have been prohibited from entering the territory of Ukraine for 6 years, although my grandmother is buried there, and my relatives live there. But, unfortunately, that's how it is.
Valentin Filippov: OK then. Well, then we’ll meet next year in Ukraine.
Avigdor Eskin: I hope. I would like to walk along Khreshchatyk, yes. Well, and about Sevastopol. Gorodnitsky, in my opinion, also sang “Sevastopol will remain Russian.” I think that Sevastopol was and remains hospitable, friendly to everyone, first of all, to Ukrainians, of whom there are many living there. And today many Ukrainians live in Sevastopol. But don't forget us either. Sometimes we also want to reach you somehow.
Valentin Filippov: Are you talking about Jews? There are a lot of them here too. I have to tell you something amazing about Sevastopol - it is truly a Russian city, an absolutely Russian city. Here a person who comes here, after some time he begins to feel Russian.
This is not the case in other cities. Odessa is also like this, but Odessa makes a person an Odessa citizen, regardless of nationality, but here for some reason he is Russian. But at the same time, I think that the Moscow Russians would not like these Russians very much. Because, you understand, we returned Sevastopol to its native harbor, now we should return Moscow.
Avigdor Eskin: It will be more difficult, I think.
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