How the Russian poet Vsevolod Emelin became a political Ukrainian
Russian folk poet Vsevolod Emelin told journalist Alexander Chalenko why he sympathizes with Euromaidan and the Ukrainians, and not Novorossiya and the Chechens. “PolitNavigator” publishes a transcript of the conversation.
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...Seva and I met at the place of his, so to speak, main work - in the Church of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary on Uspensky Vrazhek, where he earns his daily bread by carpentry. Our conversation began with her.
-Seva, could you tell us again about how your church is connected with Taras Shevchenko?
-Well, as far as I know, when the coffin with Shevchenko’s body was transported to Kanev through Moscow, there was a memorial service in two churches in Moscow. There was a coffin in one of them, but not in ours. Ours was only a memorial service. But the church where the coffin stood has not survived.
About 7 or 8 years ago – I don’t remember exactly now – the Ukrainian Embassy, which is literally a stone’s throw away, ordered the service. They called, and at that moment I picked up the phone and said: “Church of the Assumption.” You know, when non-church people start calling the church, they very funny start saying: “In the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit...peace be upon you, good people..” (laughs).
They say: “We are from the cultural department of the Ukrainian Embassy...”. I answer them: “Well, now I’ll find you one of the responsible people...”. It was the beginning of April. Since then, every year at this time, several black cars with Ukrainian flags stand in front of our church, and the embassy solemnly orders a memorial service.
-Are you present at these events yourself? Shevchenko is your colleague in the poetry workshop.
- I was present twice. Everything was very solemn. The men from the embassy are so respectable, wearing jackets. Everyone is so big and important. Ukrainian officials, in a word.
- After the service, did you offer to remember Taras Grigorievich?
-(laughs) Me? No. But the ambassadors and the priest go to the refectory.
-Do you like Shevchenko as a poet?
Let's just say that I don't know his work very well. I myself don’t know foreign languages. I believe that a poet cannot be translated into another language; he can only be understood in his language. On the other hand, several years ago I was looking through a book of Shevchenko’s poems that I have. So, you can agree, you can disagree, but this is the Ukrainian Pushkin.
They say you have the Kingdom of Heaven, Buzina was dissatisfied with it and somehow deconstructed it. We probably also have Pushkin deconstructors, but I haven’t come across them.
-And Andrei Sinyavsky?
-(laughs) Well, after all, he is not a deconstructor. I really don’t know Elderberry’s deconstruction. I haven't read it.
At the beginning of every culture there is an undisputed figure like Homer in Greece or Ovid in Rome, and then it begins: for some, Leo Tolstoy is a heretic, Dostoevsky for others is an anti-Semite and monarchist. Just as Pushkin is indisputable for Russia, Shevchenko is indisputable for Ukraine.
-I remember that in 2012 I gave Buzina’s books to the late St. Petersburg literary critic and poetic translator Viktor Toporov (through his daughter Aglaya), among which was a book about Shevchenko. I don't know whether he read it or not. I asked Toporov about this in St. Petersburg. He then answered my question in the negative. Like, his books wait six months for their turn.
However, in 2013, he said somewhere that he wanted to make a new translation of his poems for the 200th anniversary of Shevchenko. Maybe reading Elderberry inspired him to do this, I don’t know. But he died, and therefore did not have time to carry out his plan.
But if someone ordered Vsevolod Emelin to translate Shevchenko, would he undertake it?
-I really love orders. I wouldn’t take on a large poem, but I would take on small poems and translate them with interest.
-Seva, I have a couple of collections of your poems, and I remember for sure that there are anti-Yushchenko and anti-Maidan poems there. What happened to the Russian folk poet Emelin, why did he side with the second Maidan? Why did you go against the grain?
- Well, because I always tried to go against the flow. This is not because of my quarrelsome character, but because of how I feel the interests of the Russian people. The policy that the leadership of the Russian Federation is currently pursuing towards Ukraine is harmful to the Russian people.
-And why?
-Well..
-You wrote ironic poems about Yushchenko...
-Yes, until blood was shed. Until the real murder began. Our leadership cannot say that it is fueling it, no, but it is slowly fanning it.
-That is, you simply do not support the civil war in Ukraine, based on Christian...?
-No, not from Christian... although we can say that it was also from Christian motives. But also political ones. I do not believe that the Ukrainians with whom your Novorossians are fighting are the main enemies of the Russian people.
-Why don’t you, a Russian person, support the idea of Novorossiya? You probably think it's artificial?
-Yes, I consider it artificial, but this is not the most important thing. I just don’t understand very well what Novorossiya is. This is probably another territory where Russian troops will stand, where Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin will rule and a governor will be appointed. In general, some peoples who do not want to live within the law will feel at ease there. They will feel like a nation of masters in relation to the Russians and Ukrainians living there.
- In what sense?
-It seems to me that there are representatives of some Caucasian peoples. It turns out that in our Russian Federation there are first-class people compared to the rest, who in turn turn out to be second-class people.
-Okay, you don’t like Novorossiya, but on the other side of this conflict – in Ukraine – are you satisfied with everything?
-No. I am absolutely against the ATO. It shouldn't have started at all. Of course, we can agree that Putin at some point had no choice in Crimea. Although, in my opinion, the mistake was made even earlier.
-In 1954?
-(laughs) No, not in 'XNUMX. Back then, no one really thought about what would happen after the annexation of Crimea to the Russian Federation. What difference does it make, it’s not to Tajikistan, the tea was sent. I’m talking about something else: initially it was impossible to bet only on Yanukovych. Unlike Ukraine, the Russian Federation has a huge staff of its agents in Ukraine, from business to politics, as well as military command.
It wields enormous economic influence.
I understand that after the Maidan, Turchinov and Yatsenyuk, who came to power, were crazy with joy. But politics is just that: you can’t put your eggs in one basket. Why did they immediately declare everyone fascists? After all, to declare a person a fascist means to declare him not just a criminal, but an absolute evil.
-Fine. Of the then opposition troika, Klitschko and Yatsenyuk are difficult to classify as fascists, but can the leader of the social-nationalist party “Svoboda” Tyagnibok be classified as fascists?
-Yes, Lord, this is the young Ukrainian Zhirinovsky (laughs).
-You mean by this that he is simply exploiting this topic...
-… Yes Yes Yes. I want to say that I don’t understand the word fascist at all. It has simply lost its meaning in recent years.
-Fine. Are Bandera's fascists?
- “You see, Yura...” (laughs). Do you remember this phrase from the film “His Excellency’s Adjutant”? This is when the boy asks Solomin Sr.: “Pavel Ivanovich, are you a spy?” And he answers him: “You see, Yura...”. This is what they say when they cannot answer a question directly (laughs).
Well, what can I say, Bandera fought on the side of the Nazis. And I agree that then, yes, there could be no third forces. During World War II in Europe, you could either be for Hitler or against him. But it’s impossible to be a little for Hitler, but not very much for Hitler, but we are for ourselves. On the eastern front everything was clear - one was for Stalin, and one was for Hitler. This is how the story turned out - I agree.
-So, Bandera’s ideological heirs always emphasize: yes, we are Banderaites. And at the same time they raise the Bandera red and black flag above their ranks. Is Dmitry Yarosh a fascist?
- “You see, Yura...” I want to say that I know about all this from our television programs. Would you be very surprised if I said that I don’t really trust what I see on our television? And if it turns out that there is no “Right Sector” at all, then I won’t be surprised (laughs).
-Is there Yarosh?
-Yes, there is, but I have never seen him say: “Yes, I am a fascist.” Yes, there are people who took part in the Volyn massacre, who took part in the Lvov pogrom of 1941. Many of them died, many were executed, and some are living out their days.
-Seva, but Yarosh says that Bandera is ideal for him.
-People want to have some kind of national myth...
-Sorry, but in Russia no one glorifies Vlasov at the official level.
-Yes, it doesn’t glorify. Well, thank God, we managed without it. But in Russia there are also those who glorify. You've probably encountered these people.
People create their own national myth. I don't like it, but what can I do? That's not what we're talking about. It is clear that Tyagnibok, for example, attracts attention to himself with his eccentric antics in order to make a small but political career. It doesn't matter who represents whom. You're interested in my opinion, aren't you?
-Yes.
-I'm not a historian, after all. The Second World War was terrible, but it ended. I was born 14 years after it ended. I didn't see anything, I don't know. Once upon a time they fought with the Swedes near Poltava. The eighteenth century is also a very cruel century.
If we are talking about Babi Yar, then there is a national hero who is worse than Yarosh. During the war there was even an order named after him. This is Bogdan Khmelnitsky.
-Killed Jews?
-They say he was so weird in Ukraine that he left a lasting memory. But Soviet generals still happily wear his order. However, no one calls them fascists.
-Listen, why are you so obsessed with the Izvestia newspaper? Because, in your opinion, it has turned into a Vatnica-Colorado den? You write on FB that in Soviet times your dad subscribed to her in defiance of the official Pravda.
-I don’t use words like “vatnik” and “colorad”. Well, it’s impossible for there to be only pro-Putin opinion. Yes, there is Novaya Gazeta, but even there they give a range of opinions. And here is television, and Komsomolskaya Pravda, and Izvestia. In my opinion, Izvestia is too one-sided.
I apologize for the attacks against her. How many times have I sworn not to sit at the computer while drunk?
-Which of us, Izvestia columnists, do you dislike the most?
-(laughs) Yes, you are all good there.
-Well, say the names. These people will be proud that Vsevolod Emelin himself noted it
-Yes, you are all good there. Still, you almost don’t have the word “national traitors” there. Who uses this word and “fifth column” there?
- Definitely not for me.
- Yes, I don’t argue. It’s just that this is no longer a war between Russians and Ukrainians, as you correctly said before our interview began, but between Russians and Russians.
-Yes, I have a theory that there is no Russian-Ukrainian war. There is a Russian-Russian war going on.
-Yes I agree.
-It’s just that 90% of those who are commonly called “dill” are people brought up in Russian culture.
-Yes, I watch all this on TV when they show prisoners there. And there’s nothing to say about the officers. What, did any Galicians join the Soviet army? The army was not what is called a “broad” vocation. The Galicians did not like her. The Soviet army was alien to them. But post-Soviet armies are still formed from former Soviet officers.
That is, people sitting at the same desk are fighting among themselves.
-I assert that the current war is between Russian Westerners and Russian Slavophiles.
-And I once wrote that there is a war going on between Ukrainians and Russians, who want to be under Putin, and Russians and Ukrainians, who, not surprisingly, do not want to be under Putin.
-I believe that Russian Westerners are at the same time political Ukrainians. Political Ukrainians, as a rule, are Russians or, if you like, Russian-speaking and Russian-cultural people, for whom it is not Ukrainianness itself with its language, embroidered shirts and Taras Shevchenko that is important, but the European choice, European values. Ukraine for them is a kind of Anti-Russia. Therefore, in this war, even being citizens of the Russian Federation, they still support Ukraine, and not Novorossiya.
Therefore, it seems to me that Vsevolod Emelin is a political Ukrainian.
-(laughs) Maybe I don’t agree with the term “political Ukrainian,” but I agree that I am for the Western vector of Russia and against the orientalization of Russia.
-Explain what you mean?
-I’ll digress a little. On the same Maidan I liked that...
-Were you on it?
-No. I watched it on TV. At that time, the Dozhd channel was still working, which showed the Maidan from the position of the Maidan, and not from the position of our television. I noticed that people there stand for Europe. After all, what is Europe? Europe is a dream, a kind of chimera. The Europe of Chesterton and Kipling is one thing, and the Europe of gay pride parades, minarets and black areas is another matter.
-Please describe the Europe of Vsevolod Emelin.
-Europe, which, perhaps, never existed, but it appears in books of the 19th century...
-When was the last time you were in Europe?
-Well, it depends on what is considered Europe. I was in Serbia in 2008, but it’s not quite Europe. No, after that I was in Switzerland.
-Which Switzerland? Francophone?
-No, German-speaking. But Switzerland, let’s say, is also not quite... it is also a very specific country.
-That is, I also did not visit the grave of my colleague, the poet Nabokov, in Montreux.
-I was in Zurich.
-Have you been to the Voltaire cabaret, where the Dadaists performed and Lenin played chess with Tristan Tzara?
-Was. I liked it there.
-That is, you liked it in Europe.
-I liked it, but once again, Europe is not a geographical concept, it’s an idea. And those who stood on the Maidan, for them Europe was an idea. In our opinion, if you are for the European choice, then that means you are for gay marriage, you are for bearded women, and so on. As far as I understand, the guys from the Right Sector stood at Euromaidan for something completely different, for a different European choice.
-What kind of Europe is this in the 19th century?
-Well, let's put it this way, maybe not from the 19th century, but from the 20-30s of the 20th century. Of course, we are not taking Germany in this case. This is White Europe, with Christian, real values. A Europe that recognizes itself as the cultural leader of the world. And the physical leader of the world, who considers herself smarter, more cultured, stronger, so we have the right to show everyone how to live. We have the right to...
-...imperialism.
-Yes, and the right to imperialism... This, by the way, is Chesterton’s Europe. And Yulia Latynina on “Echo of Moscow” sometimes comes close to these ideas, by the way. So, on the Maidan, as I saw it from the reports of the Dozhd TV channel, many young people were not at all for gay pride parades.
-By the way, Seva, after such statements you can easily join the Right Sector.
-(thank you, thank you. But it is prohibited here.
-Do I understand correctly that you, being for White Europe, do not like blacks, Muslims, Caucasians? Or do you love, but when they are at home?
-Yes Yes. I love them very much when they live at home, in their own country.
-Well, what should Russia do then, since the Caucasus is part of it?
-Don't know. If only I knew, but no one knows what to do. That’s why we’re fiddling around with all this “business.” Therefore, we don’t need more Asianism; we are already sufficiently Asianized and Caucasianized. Why else should we cut off Novorossiya with Allah Akbar.
- Well, wait, well, what kind of Caucasian Novorossiya is it?
-And this story is when the Chechens took Gubarev out in the middle of the day. Then why do we need these more... I don’t consider Russia a wild country, although its history was difficult and gloomy. No one will argue with this, sometimes it’s successful, sometimes it’s unsuccessful. But in Russia there is enough of the Asian element, and it is growing every day. Thank God, I live in Moscow and see everything. And as it is written in one of my poems, on the way to the metro one day I did not meet a single Russian person. We don’t need to add more Eurasianism. Let Ukraine be nearby with its European choice, let Belarus be...
And when Maidan happened, all my sympathies were on his side. I don’t need Russia with the Caucasus, with Central Asian guest workers, with such a semi-dictator at its head.
-Listen, I don’t understand you. Now, let’s assume that the Kremlin really has a plan to annex Novorossiya (the territory from Odessa to Lugansk and Kharkov), why do you, a supporter of White Europe, object to this, because in theory a territory with 20 million white population will join Russia? I understand that the Chechens took Gubarev out, but how many of those Chechens are there?
-No, well, they exist in Russia too.
-There are only a million of them.
-Well, yes, for 140 million Russians. Look, the city of millions is Donetsk. It contains Gubarev, the third person...
-Listen, he doesn’t hold any official position in the Republic.
-But in terms of fame, he is at least the third person. There are so many people with machine guns in Donetsk, and they all declare that they are fighting for great Russia, for the Russian people, and here in the center of this city it is completely calm, unknown Chechens, because of some Caucasian grievances, supposedly offended their leader, are taking a man out . They want to keep him, they want to release him. And no one is anything. Nobody tried to find these people. Nobody has figured out how all this can happen. There, in Donetsk, the same thing begins that already exists in Russia.
The trouble, as they say, is not in the closets, but in the heads. With the system that exists in Russia, if you add at least 100 million more Russians to it, it won’t be easier. The system needs to be changed here. Since it is impossible to change it now, I am against the “Novorossiya project”. It will only strengthen this entire system.
-That is, for you Novorossiya is some kind of gangster...
-No, I don't say gangster. I was not there.
-Seva, look, what is the European idea in Russia? This is Peter the Great, who cut a window to Europe.
-Yes.
-Then the Russian army and the Russian fleet of the European model were created. This is Catherine the Second with her enlightened absolutism, Letter of Grant to the Nobility, and correspondence with Voltaire. Moreover, under her rule in 1764 the Novorossiysk province was formed with its center in Kremenchug. Then such cities as Odessa, Mariupol, Kherson, Ekaterinoslav, Nikolaev appeared. In the eyes of any Russian patriot, these are Russian cities. So what's the deal?
-Yes, these are Russian cities. I just want them not to end up in Russia. If Catherine ruled us now, then I would be for Novorossiya. I think Ukraine would also be for Novorossiya.
-That is, you don’t like the idea itself, but the system created in Russia.
-Yes, this system will simply creep apart. It has gotten worse for us, and it will get worse in Ukraine. Although some people felt better. Let's not point fingers at them. Is this why blood is shed?
I am not for the Ukrainian armed forces to take Donetsk or Lugansk. I just don't know the way out. There is no way out of this situation in the form of a victory for one of the sides - either the Donetsk people over the Ukrainian army, or the Ukrainian army over the Donetsk people, or some kind of arrival of the Red Army in Kiev and all the way to Lvov.
A huge disaster happened, which made it worse for everyone: Russians in Moscow, Russians in Donetsk, Russians in Kyiv, and Ukrainians in Ivano-Frankovsk.
And we need to talk not about the fact that we need to defeat someone, but about how to get out of this situation. I can’t say anything good about the Ukrainian authorities either: they are completely crazy people.
-What would you, as a representative of civil society, suggest?
-Well, first of all, make sure they don’t shoot. At least freeze the situation and talk to Putin and Poroshenko themselves without any Germans, French and Americans.
-But how is this possible if Gennady Korban, one of Kolomoisky’s close associates, says that Poroshenko has American curators. What he said was published in a Ukrainian magazine. He directly says that the American ambassador in Kyiv is Poroshenko’s director. Korban is not some kind of quilted jacket, not a Coloradoan. This is said by a man who did everything to ensure that there was no Russian Spring in Dnepropetrovsk in 2014.
-But I still don’t believe that this situation is beneficial for the Americans. Then Poroshenko’s task is to get rid of this guardianship. But Putin also needs to get rid of many of his views and advisers, from what drives his views, and not raise his rating through the war and keep it in the boiling point. Are some curators preventing him from freezing the war situation?
I don’t see a way out of this situation, but I think that long and tedious negotiations are needed. And without any Merkels and Hollands, who only confuse everything.
-Did you somehow respond poetically to the civil war? If so, how?
-I have a lot of texts. I can pick it up and send it to you. I published them on my Facebook.
-When Nemtsov was killed, how did you take it all? Do you think that Moskvoretsky Bridge should be renamed Nemtsov Bridge?
-No I do not think so.
-How did you feel about Nemtsov?
-Well, it’s difficult for us to take opposition politicians seriously. Once upon a time in 1991 I made a noise: “Come on, come on! Yeltsin! Yeltsin! We brought them to power, and they gave it to people I don’t like at all.
Just try to throw Putin out of power, but you, today’s oppositionists, why did you leave power so easily? This is what concerns the attitude towards Nemtsov as a politician. Well, as for a person, well, what are the complaints about him: cheerful, handsome, women love him. What we are going to do? We'll be jealous.
Some call us “political Ukrainians,” others call us “the fifth column.” Of course, his murder did not make any political sense, because he did not pose any threat to political power, but they wanted to scare the public, who did not agree with the course.
“I, an emigrant, was often reproached: they say, Chalenko, well, why do you constantly say that in Kyiv now it is dangerous to be an oppositionist, but Buzina walks around Kyiv and nothing. Well, there you go. Does oppositionist Vsevolod Emelin feel safe on the streets of Moscow? Do they come up to you and say: “I’ll strangle you now, you bastard”?
-I used to receive threats from a variety of people on LiveJournal. You understand, I’m older than you and I’ve already lived my life. Every year I will have more and more illnesses. There will be fewer opportunities to have fun. There will be less intelligence, more stupidity. But I feel, in general, safe. If only because around me I see people more radical than me. But by killing Nemtsov, they wanted to scare everyone, including me.
-Do you take an active part in street political actions?
-I was on Bolotnaya, yes. After Nemtsov’s murder, I walked across the Moskvoretsky Bridge, yes.
-Do you formally formalize your membership in opposition parties?
-No. Because, in general, I don’t think I’m involved in politics.
-For you, as an Orthodox person, is Father Andrei Kuraev an authority?
-Yes, authority. He, too, as you put it, is now a “political Ukrainian.”
-What happened to him? I remember, he was such a fighter against the Orange, such an inveterate anti-Maidan activist. What now?
-I know about him, but whether he knows about me, I don’t know. We never met him personally. Well what can I say. Because we see that blood is being shed. We just don't think there's anything to blame for it. It cannot be cast for political interests in which our leadership is involved.
-I remember that Father Andrei published a brochure dedicated to the events in Kondopoga. Then he, like you, was for the Russians, not for the Chechens. It seems like he should be on the side of the Vatniks and Colorados, but, in fact, he’s not.
-Yes, even now I have nothing against quilted jackets and Colorados. We simply believe that danger is coming from the other side. From the South-East side. Russia already has enough of an Asian element. Our Russian identity is being undermined by the East, which, due to the conflict in Ukraine, we were called upon to focus on, and also, united in military friendship, to protect the Russian people from the inhabitants of Ukraine. I don't think the latter pose a serious threat. I think that Father Andrei thinks the same. He most likely believes that this is all a chimera.
You can love Western Ukrainians, or you can not love them. You can love Caucasians, or you can not love them. But you can’t call for blood. I want to live my life in such a way that there is no blood on me.
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