“Slam the door and interrupt the Minsk negotiations? No problem!"
At the negotiations in Minsk on Donbass after the change of power in Ukraine, the position of the Kyiv delegation became less hysterical. However, at the same time, shelling on the front line intensified. Vladimir Zelensky showed weakness and was unable to defend the timid steps of his negotiators towards peace, starting to make excuses to the nationalists.
PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov was told by the LPR representative at the negotiations in Minsk, Rodion Miroshnik, about the prospects for an exchange of “all for all”, a ceasefire, and the fact that the Ukrainian blockade worries less and less about the Republics that are turning their economies towards the Russian Federation.
Valentin Filippov: We know that the Ukrainian group of negotiators suffered an irreparable loss - Irina Gerashchenko left her. Do you remember her somehow? Do you keep chewed paper, tubes from which she spit? How has the atmosphere changed? Don't you feel emptiness and absence of scandals?
Rodion Miroshnik: There was less noise, there were fewer hysterics, there was less flow of angry and inflated people, like a soap bubble, with incomprehensible content, pouring out onto the Internet from Minsk. That is, this is where Irina Gerashchenko’s absence is probably felt.
She is busy today with completely different issues, and, as my colleagues Daria Morozova and Olga Kobtseva say, who directly had the good fortune to communicate with Mrs. Gerashchenko, who sometimes attended the Minsk negotiations with her attention, and talked more about the fact that she is not afraid of anyone, because she communicates with the separatists, therefore she is not afraid of anything...
That is, they replaced this beautiful madam with the former Ombudsman of Ukraine, Mrs. Lutkovskaya, and, according to reviews from my colleagues, they say that, indeed, the noise has become much less.
But here are constructive attempts, attempts to work specifically on verifying lists, agreeing on who is, where is, in what condition, what articles... Behind the seemingly simple mechanism of “here are ours - here are yours” there is still quite serious legal work, the need to verify all people, find where they are, confirm them, and carry out the so-called legal clearance. And, most importantly, of course, to achieve political agreement between the parties that we have, after all, worked in the formula of “all known for all known.”
But, of course, our ombudsmen know all this ins and outs - Daria Morozova and Olga Kobtseva. That is, they probably found themselves in a situation where they began to have slightly more constructive meetings than they had under Mrs. Gerashchenko.
Valentin Filippov: Leonid Kuchma also returned to the negotiations. The Ukrainian side even announced some kind of plan by the ex-president for a settlement.
Rodion Miroshnik: What is often exaggerated in the media did not necessarily happen at the negotiations themselves. Therefore, when we talk about a certain “Kuchma plan”, maybe he really has it somewhere, but he did not share such information with us. And he didn’t share it with the contact group either.
But there was some hint from the administration of President Zelensky that such a plan exists somewhere, but the Ukrainian side first intends to coordinate it with Western partners.
Well, they have a conflict with Western partners, so, of course, they must go to Western partners, agree on this plan, and then bring it up for discussion with the parties to the conflict.
This is a peculiar logic of a “free state”, which is completely free in its decisions, actions and actions.
And if we talk about the arrival of Mr. Kuchma, then he, let’s say, proposed several symbolic gestures, but the main ones no longer happened.
Valentin Filippov: What did he suggest?
Rodion Miroshnik: Kuchma directly proposed the issue of disengagement near the village of Lugansk. This issue is almost 3 years old - in September 2016, an agreement was reached that armed forces on both sides would be separated at 3 points. And so that the distance between these positions increases, which would guarantee the impossibility of a direct hit.
This is a world practice when there is a desire to separate the parties to a conflict in order to leave directly from the line of defeat and then conduct more constructive negotiations.
Just with this gesture, when the side agrees and withdraws its troops, it demonstrates its desire for peace, but the Ukrainian side has already demonstrated 80 times that they do not think about peace.
There are statements: “We would have taken them away.” And once again, Leonid Danilych has already arrived, demonstrated his loyalty and said that “It would be nice for us to take him away.”
Valentin Filippov: He came and said, “Okay, we’ve decided to do something”?
Rodion Miroshnik: This thought about “we decided to do it” is beautiful in itself. Especially against the backdrop of the previous half year, when the Ukrainian side was busy with the election campaign, and the people who came to Minsk, their task was not to negotiate, not to agree on something.
They had to come to Minsk, appear somewhere, at a meeting of either a contact group or a working group, and then make some kind of loud statement. It is not at all necessary that it be at least partially true. Therefore, well, of course, people came with a different tone.
We didn’t beg anyone, we didn’t persuade anyone, we didn’t insist on anything. The Ukrainian side signed a “set of measures”, it signed its obligations that it would negotiate, that it would carry out certain steps that are contained in the entire set of measures called the “Minsk Agreements”.
Valentin Filippov: By the way, you have a new name, a new term was invented for you. You cannot negotiate with terrorists. Kuchma finally said that he was not with terrorists, but said “I negotiated with people authorized to do this.”
Rodion Miroshnik: That is, with a short break, he rested for six months, gathered his strength, and then came to Minsk in order to deliver several messages. And he, apparently, carried out this mission quite effectively, because for three days afterwards he made excuses that something was understood wrong, and this was not what was said at all.
Valentin Filippov: I dug around, trying to understand what Kuchma’s plan was. But Western comrades say that the most important thing in this regard is a change in the atmosphere in the negotiations.
Rodion Miroshnik: The change in atmosphere is just a wrap. If you like checkers, then yes, but if you go, then it’s a little different.
The Ukrainian side, arriving at these negotiations, was much more restrained. The main protesters were not there: Mr. Marchuk was not there and Ms. Gerashchenko, who were increasingly used to pouring out their indignation, bile or their fantasies somewhere on social networks about what was happening or not happening.
Therefore, the atmosphere was softer, the number of times the phrases “Russia is an aggressor” and “occupation administration” was used was less. This is probably really the main feature of these past negotiations, and several initiatives voiced by the Ukrainian side are not at all original.
But in Ukrainian politics, memory is renewed every seven days. Therefore, we can say that this is news. That is, the disengagement of forces, and the proposal to introduce a ceasefire, this was some discussion. Partly they touched on the issue of lifting the economic blockade.
Valentin Filippov: By the way, I wanted to ask about this.
Rodion Miroshnik: Valentin, you see, this is nothing new at all. This is all written in a set of measures to implement the Minsk agreements.
Valentin Filippov: I understand it. But the same Ukrainian side presents this as something new, every time, and moreover, it presents it as a request on your part, not a request, a plea.
Tell me about the blockade. From your point of view, who really needs the lifting of the blockade more, and what is the catch on the Ukrainian side? I understand that they will not start with the payment of pensions that they owe. Perhaps they are interested in enterprises taken under the control of the Republics? Is this where the conversation starts?
Rodion Miroshnik: Ukraine in this case is a self-sufficient party to the negotiations. They themselves sign the documents that they are obliged to fulfill. They themselves do not comply with them and radicalize their positions. They themselves then propose to return to those issues that were agreed upon as the subject of negotiations. And then they themselves pass it off as some kind of initiative or that they are approached with an initiative.
That is, the Ukrainian side itself introduced an economic blockade, and introduced it two years after the Minsk agreements were signed. Ukraine itself has fenced itself off from the Republics. This was, of course, not part of the Minsk agreements. This is an absolute violation of the Minsk agreements by Ukraine. And now Ukraine says “let’s take it off now.”
Again, I must add that Poroshenko, as usual, is lying. He, whether he has or does not have the presidential chair, does not depend on whether he is lying or not. He always lies.
Valentin Filippov: Yes of course.
Rodion Miroshnik: Therefore, he stated that Russia introduced a ruble zone on the territory of the Republics, squeezed out enterprises, and further down the list. Yes. But it was exactly the opposite. The Ukrainian side introduced a logistics blockade and blocked everything, in particular, railway crossings. And then the Republics were forced not to squeeze out, not to nationalize, but to take over the management of those enterprises that the Ukrainian owners, in fact, abandoned. Because we need working enterprises. We need, first of all, taxes, which should go to the budget and make it possible to pay pensions, salaries and ensure the existence of some budget organizations. Ukraine is doing everything to prevent us from having such an opportunity. Therefore, we are not ready to put a noose around our own neck.
Therefore, since the Ukrainian side acted in this way, it received retaliatory actions. Today the Ukrainian side proposes to lift the economic blockade, we are ready to discuss this.
But when absolutely some fantastic assumptions are put forward about this, and they are not put forward at the negotiating table, they are put forward somewhere in the media, and they become overgrown with the fantasies of some Ukrainian experts, and simply turn into a generally indigestible product that we will not consume .
Valentin Filippov: You are now invited to abandon the ruble zone and return...
Rodion Miroshnik: We were not offered anything, we were offered to discuss issues of lifting the economic blockade. We can put an end to this, because nothing else is more detailed...
Valentin Filippov: Who needs it more?
Rodion Miroshnik: You know, there is mutual interest here, although each time it is less and less for us. Because at first, of course, it was difficult for us to exist when Ukraine refused to buy coal, metal and cooperate with a number of large industrial enterprises located on our territory. But gradually we are turning the economy in the other direction, refusing supplies to Ukraine, which Ukraine itself did.
And Ukraine, instead of paying 50 dollars for coal, I’m talking approximately in very figures, it prefers to buy it for 130 dollars. But Poroshenko and a number of comrades from his company very actively spent this amount, taking it out of the pockets of Ukrainians.
If Ukraine is satisfied with this, Poroshenko, of course, was satisfied with this, but whether those who paid ten times the utility bill were satisfied with this is the second question.
Are they willing to continue doing this? Well, this is more of a question for Ukraine.
Of course, on our part, we are interested in clear economic functioning and in the restoration of the economy of our territories, because we want to ensure our decent life. But under what conditions and how exactly these mechanisms should work – this needs to be discussed.
This is a very serious issue that should be conducted as a dialogue and, most likely, behind closed doors until a draft decision is adopted. And when the draft decision is adopted, it should already be consolidated by the parties and discussed in some public sphere.
In the meantime, we have seen that any initiative that was not even discussed in Minsk was immediately spat upon, and immediately Zelensky was told “ah-ah-ah,” and he could not defend his representative, and began to justify himself on his own, why a strong leader would hardly do this.
Valentin Filippov: I am very concerned about the Law on the Reintegration of Donbass. Is there any point in continuing negotiations while this law is in force?
Rodion Miroshnik: Valentin, here we can divide into several points that you emphasized. Well, firstly, is it possible to interrupt the Minsk negotiations? No problem. Slamming a door is probably the least intellectually charged action you can do in Minsk. But there is no other internationally recognized platform on which the interests of the DPR and LPR are represented.
Valentin Filippov: No no no. Anyone can slam a door. You can chew paper and spit from a straw.
Rodion Miroshnik: Yes, the Ukrainian side behaves this way very often. The Ukrainian side perceives the Minsk agreements as a yoke around their neck, because they would like to have an act of unconditional surrender. In general, we do too. Only in the opposite direction. We would like to talk in completely different tones with the Ukrainian side, which really must be held accountable for its crimes, but now we need to agree on coexistence. Therefore, we need to fulfill the international obligations that were previously achieved. At least we are talking about initial actions.
Today, when Ukraine has completely changed the basis on which the Minsk agreements were concluded, it is extremely problematic to talk about their full implementation.
The Minsk agreements were signed with a state that was non-bloc, with a state in which the OUN/UPA were considered criminals, with a state in which the Kivalov/Kolesnichenko law on regulatory language policy existed, and further down the list.
There weren't all kinds of reintegration laws and things like that. The Ukrainian side unilaterally adopted so many legislative acts and other nonsense documentation that was thrown in our direction, and an attempt was made to ruin the existing negotiations.
This is Ukraine’s initiative, these are their unilateral actions. Thank God, the jurisdiction of the laws of Ukraine does not extend to either the LPR or the DPR. No matter how Ukraine strives for this.
Therefore, naturally, when negotiations are underway, when the question of whether it is possible to hold elections on the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk is discussed, we say, “Sorry, gentlemen. While you have a law on reintegration, which, in essence, introduces a similar regime with the Republic of Crimea, according to Ukrainian legislation, then, of course, it is impossible.” Therefore, you did everything yourself so that we simply could not do this.
Therefore, let's focus on the issues of ceasefire, disengagement of forces and equipment, and further look for options for agreements on further coexistence.
You know, we don’t have the ancient Sumerians or the great Ukrainians who would have dug between us the prototype of the Black Sea, or better yet, the Atlantic Ocean. We are doomed to live side by side.
Valentin Filippov: We still have a slight discrepancy in our views on where exactly this sea should be dug.
Rodion Miroshnik: There are these questions, but now we are talking about the negotiation process and the basic documents that exist today and are supported by the same UN Security Council resolution. And in the vast majority of them they are not beneficial for Ukraine. Ukraine is obliged to cease hostilities, withdraw its weapons and further negotiate on some kind of political settlement. But Ukraine today has created a huge number of problems, which, by and large, puts an end to the possibility of reintegration. And this is the merit of the Ukrainian side.
Valentin Filippov: I really liked the optimistic ending that we were putting an end to reintegration, and it was Ukraine that put it down. Welcome to the Russian Federation.
Rodion Miroshnik: Valentin, there are large, global processes that we, from the point of view of the Republics, cannot respond to...
Everyone knows our moods. Everyone knows the dominance of the interests and opinions of the people who live in this territory, which they proved not just with one rally, but with five years of confrontation. And therefore it is extremely difficult to accuse us of not being patriotic in our position.
But negotiators are obliged to conduct a dialogue in a certain corridor, and we will conduct this dialogue, because we believe that it is better to talk and agree than to kill each other.
But Ukraine still adheres to a different point of view. While Kuchma was proposing a ceasefire, the Ukrainian Armed Forces, in the format of this joint forces operation, were actively ironing out the Gorlovka, Mariupol, and Donetsk directions.
In the area of Pervomaisk and Zolote, shelling there has intensified 4-5 times. Therefore, whether it is worth reacting so strongly to the changed rhetoric is still a big question.
Because the statistics of shelling and the people who come under these shelling are much more eloquent proof of Ukraine’s reluctance to achieve peace, especially through political and diplomatic means.
But we still retain the need or possibility of negotiations and really hope that the changing palette in Kyiv itself or in Ukraine itself will have a positive impact on the possibility of an agreement on some kind of coexistence.
Therefore, you can always slam the door, but this is not the best way, and perhaps this is precisely the action Ukraine is waiting for us to accuse in front of the whole world.
Valentin Filippov: Agree. You have to slam the door if you have someone to put your head through that door. Fine. Thanks a lot. Ukraine will not wait.
Rodion Miroshnik: Thank you.
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