Oleg Khavich. Interview after the attack - the night before the search
Political scientist Oleg Havich from the city of Chernivtsi is known as a supporter of the federalization of Ukraine and the autonomy of its Western part.
Two days ago, he was attacked by “ATO veterans” for speaking at a round table about the infringement of the rights of the Romanian minority in Bukovina. After this, Khavic was detained by the police, and this morning he was searched by SBU officers.
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At night, on the eve of the search, Oleg Khavich gave an interview to a columnist PolitNavigator Valentin Filippov.
Valentin Filippov: Hello Oleg.
Oleg Havich: Good evening, Valentin.
Valentin Filippov: I am tormented by the question - maybe we should stop using the phrase “round table”? Maybe we need to implement a “square table”. Or the “trident table”?
The phrase “round table” evokes such a desire to urgently go and trim it - both from the special services and from the “heroes holding back Putin’s aggression, protecting the whole of Europe.”
Oleg Havich: Maybe it's just a reaction to competition. The fact is that, according to legend, the Ukrainian Cossacks had such a defense scheme when they placed their carts in a circle. And they sat there behind them, defending themselves from the advancing ones, primarily the Tatars. Because the Polish hussars carried these carts along with the Cossacks, and the light Tatar cavalry could not immediately overcome the heavy ones loaded with looted goods, because the Cossacks are land pirates.
Therefore, maybe these guys, who are used to looting in the Southeast, have such a reaction to competition that someone else is portraying some kind of bullshit.
Although, these are all sad jokes.
But seriously, it’s not just the name “round table” that irritates, but any attempt to carry out an intellectual action. Because these people not only do not perceive anything other than slogans, but they do not even perceive long slogans. They prefer a slogan of two to four words. Anything more is difficult for them to remember.
I remember very well, as a child I read a popular science book for children about badgers. Badgers count to three. They have one, two, three, and then many. Five and fifty, that's a lot. And up to three they can still distinguish. So, these people can probably count to four. And after five they begin to experience cognitive dissonance. They can’t remember a four-word sentence. Probably the only exception is the anthem, and even then they don’t know more than one verse. But one verse can probably be learned.
Valentin Filippov: Well, maybe there are just a lot of them. Maybe everyone learned three words.
Oleg Havich: And take turns?
Valentin Filippov: Yes. And three words, and who follows whom - according to height.
All right.
So it turns out that Ukrainian activists do not completely accept any kind of national diversity?
Oleg Havich: Undoubtedly.
Valentin Filippov: They are no longer only against the Russians. Yes?
Oleg Havich: The issue is not only about national diversity. None. You noted correctly. They don't accept any diversity. This is the case when everyone should be driven to the level of the plinth at which they themselves are.
The question is not about nationality and language. Most of these people spoke Russian, in fact. Some of them spoke broken Ukrainian. Some of them spoke Romanian. They expressed some complaints that were completely incomprehensible. Because there was a presentation “Protection of the rights of national minorities”, and the goal was to use the contacts of Ukrainian national minorities with their mother states, which are members of the European Union, in order to obtain an additional level of contacts, additional ties with the European Union. Including in solving some specific issues.
I have already spoken to some Ukrainian journalists about this. For them, it was a discovery that a significant role in the decision of the relevant committee of the European Parliament to introduce a visa-free regime for Ukraine was played by such MEP Andrei Bochko. She is from Beregovo (The city in which the Hungarian majority lives compactly is the Transcarpathian region, Ukraine, - ed.). Lecturer at Bereg University. This is one of the few MPs with dual citizenship. And the only MEP whose second citizenship is not EU citizenship. And this person, she not only defends the rights and interests of the Hungarian minority in Transcarpathia, but she consistently supports Ukraine in the European Parliament. Yes, she is a deputy from the Fedez party, which is usually criticized not only in Ukraine, but also in such ultra-liberal European circles.
And no one even wants to know about it. And this is quite strange.
Likewise, Romania, neighboring Chernivtsi, does quite a lot to support cooperation programs with Ukraine. It is clear that they have their own interests. But, in the end, some money still comes through. And to Kyiv, and to Chernivtsi. And if it were not for the Romanian position, even this money would not have existed.
And then some people appear and shout wild slogans in front of fairly high-ranking officials. The Consul General of Romania in Chernivtsi was present. The head of the external partnerships department of the Suceava Regional Council was present. And Suceava is the Suceava regional council, it is a partner of the Chernivtsi regional council. A leading expert on national minorities from the Suceava prefecture was present. Moreover, he is an ethnic Ukrainian. He is fluent in Ukrainian. He was going to tell a lot of interesting things at this round table. And then people who call themselves Bukovinian Romanians come running in and say things that I don’t want to repeat. Rave.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, can you explain to me, did these “ATO heroes” also call themselves ethnic Romanians?
Oleg Havich: There was a part there. Some of them were people, they were clearly selected for this, three or four people, they called themselves and were ethnic Romanians, and they made claims to me that I did not know the Romanian language. I agreed with this. Unfortunately, I don't know Romanian. I would like to know him. I know him on some basic level to ask for water or ask for directions. But….
Valentin Filippov: Excuse me, it turns out that various communities and cultural centers in Ukraine are beginning to be threatened? I’m not talking about Russian organizations - everyone knows what’s happening near the Russian embassy and consulates. But here in Odessa the Greek cultural center is quite powerful. And Bulgarian, and not only. I am silent about the Jewish ones.
Oleg Havich: The question is what we talked about a little earlier. The question is that a skating rink of monotony is now rolling across Ukraine. He threatens everyone. Not only national minorities or dissidents. Just everyone who doesn’t agree with a certain general line. And the general line, as you know, fluctuates at one time or another. According to need.
The call of these comrades to disrupt this action was undertaken by the leadership of the police, above all - the Ministry of Internal Affairs - in order to simply divert their attention from their own demands. Because all these people who have been accustomed, some for a year or two, in the so-called ATO zone, that their Kalashnikovs are born by power, they can go into any apartment, take what they like or stay there overnight.
And then they return to their native region, and find themselves of no use to anyone. Even if one of them was allocated a plot of land, it can be spent on drink fairly quickly. You can also get a second one. But eventually it ends.
And they miss the sense of exclusivity they had there. With the ability to shoot in all directions. And they, sooner or later, begin to demand it, some on famous roller skates in minibuses, in housing offices, somewhere in queues. In the same way, they come to the authorities and demand something for themselves.
In order to distract them from demanding land or an apartment, or money, they are sent to smash them. This time they were sent to destroy the round table on national minorities. Tomorrow they will be sent to destroy wine and vodka stores. I think they will do this with great pleasure. Actually, there is something to profit from there. More than posters and markers.
Valentin Filippov: Some say that the chaos that was born in Kyiv spread with the war to the Southeast, and is now gradually beginning in Western Ukraine. Is this really true?
Oleg Havich: This state, unfortunately, is simply expanding territorially, and its tension is increasing. Because the standard of living is declining, the level of income of all categories of the population, without exception, is declining.
Naturally, most of these people who were there posing as heroes, perhaps if they were given some kind of normal job, at least for 200 dollars, a significant part of them would be normal people. But the fact is that in the Chernivtsi region, besides smuggling and a very small number of operating enterprises, there is simply nowhere to put your efforts.
It is clear that some of them are really wounded, and if this were a normal state, it would provide normal social assistance to veterans, for which they could eat and dress.
But there is neither one nor the other.
Abstracting from what kind of democracy we have, this society sent him or her there. But when society, having sent him there, the state in our situation, does not bear any responsibility, then it tries to compensate for its debts by sending them to earn pennies and sublimate the remaining energy in pogroms of the type that took place.
This is a big problem. It lies beyond national minorities. Linguistic or intellectual. Total unification is planned. Naturally, when this unification ends, troubles will begin at a lower level.
One of my good friends recalled the situation with the Afghans, a significant part of whom died in the early nineties in various business disputes. In fact, in gang warfare. But I said that this situation would not happen now. In the early nineties, despite this collapse of the Soviet economy, a new business grew out of its ruins. And there is no new business in Ukraine now. Everything was already looted 20-25 years ago. And it was transformed into a business that has collapsed over the past three years.
They have nowhere to apply even their fighting efforts. They can form gangs along the lines of the early nineties that the Afghans formed, but there is nothing to fight for. Nobody will pay them for this. There is no one to rob.
Everyone is so poor that there is no point in robbing.
Valentin Filippov: But, if everyone is poor, then does a smaller robbery make sense? By the way, you say “we are moving towards unification.” Is it possible that the unification of the country will be achieved by reducing its borders?
Oleg Havich: Well, this process is already happening. This is, by and large, a rhetorical question.
Valentin Filippov: Well, then I'm waiting for a rhetorical answer.
Oleg Havich: The rhetorical answer is yes. The length of the borders and, accordingly, the area of the country have been consistently decreasing over the past three years. First, Crimea left; last month, the border along the demarcation line as of February 2015 in Donbass was formalized. It is difficult to predict possible next lines of cleavage. It’s just that the number of fragments may be much greater than any political scientists predict.
You can talk as much as you like about Novorossiya, Little Russia, Western Ukraine, or already about pieces of our Western Ukraine, but the process of disintegration can go so quickly that the number of possible fragments and lines of schism can be absolutely surprising. Unfortunately, unpredictable. The lines can go anywhere.
We can remember the early nineties, when the regions set up customs offices among themselves. But even districts can do this. And someone will, like in Central Asia, fight for water.
You may have heard that the Kyiv authorities have an idea to build a whole complex of mini-hydroelectric power stations on the Dniester. In the upper part of its course. Which will lead to shallowing of the Dniester in the lower part. Not only in Moldova, but also in other parts of Ukraine. There is panic in parts of Ukraine. Stop, we won’t have water! These are already Central Asian problems.
Valentin Filippov: Yes.
Oleg Havich: Water wars between the Central Asian republics of the former Soviet Union. They are little known here, but these are serious things. And they start in Ukraine, where there was enough water. At least in that part of Ukraine where there was enough water. This is not Nikolaev, the arid areas of the Nikolaev region. Where there was no water, and for a long time.
Therefore, disintegration may turn out to be completely unpredictable by anyone. And the fact that the government stimulates it with its actions, it seems to me that this is not some kind of intentional process.
That is, they are constantly trying to create some kind of smoke screens that will distract people from the main thing. As for me, from a sharp and prolonged drop in living standards. Everyone. Most categories of the population of Ukraine. In all regions. Regardless of national and social composition.
And these smoke bombs that are launched from Kyiv, and not only from Bankova, as a result, their number may turn out to be so large that everything will explode at the same time.
Yes? Like Pelevin, the off-ball will collapse. Like in Snuff. And..... I wouldn't want to. Honestly, I wouldn't like to think about it. Because, as it were, I’m on this ball.
Valentin Filippov: Yes. The ball will collapse. And the rest of humanity will be taught wisdom by an escaped sex toy.
Oleg Havich: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: Well, regarding borders, I immediately remembered: “Where do you get border dogs?” - “We don’t take it anywhere. We draw borders where dogs live!
Oleg Havich: So.
Valentin Filippov: Well, thank you very much, you have now poured a certain amount of optimism into my soul.
Oleg Havich: We are trying. Chernivtsi have always been close to Odessa in terms of humor. Including even such a specific one, which is called “gallows humor.” That is why it is so easy for us to jump from one phrase to another, and continue each other’s phrases.
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Thank you!
Now the editors are aware.