Polish expert: “What is happening in Ukraine is the disintegration of an entire people from within”
Poland begins criminal prosecution for Bandera ideology. Almost the entire Kiev leadership could be subject to sanctions. A more loyal approach is expected towards ordinary citizens of Ukraine who do not share the official Ukrainian ideology.
About what pushed Ukraine onto the path of Nazism, on which Ukraine itself would suffer the most, to a PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov said the Chairman of the Trusteeship of Eastern Crosses Conrad Rekas
Valentin Filippov:Conrad, hello
Conrad Rekas: Hello
Valentin Filippov: As I understand it, you are in some way an expert on Ukraine, I wanted to ask you, as a person from Europe. Is Ukraine still viable, or is it time to save it from all sides?
Conrad Rekas: You know, we look at Ukraine like this: – more important in Poland is the attitude towards the Volyn massacre and Bandera ideology in Ukraine. As you, I think, have heard and read what happened in Poland. Three years of imprisonment and a heavy fine threaten these people who promote Bandera ideology in Poland. This is a consequence of an amendment to the law on the Institute of National Remembrance, adopted by the majority of the Polish Sejm at the request of the Polish Kresovites. Polish prosecutors and police must now continue to prevent the use of Bandera symbols. Like flags, like books, like leaflets. It is also forbidden to deny the historical crimes of Bandera, such as the Volyn massacre. This means that Ukrainian politicians like Vyatrovich, a real Volyn liar, can be held accountable when they come to Polish territory. The new law, if applied consistently, could become an important tool in the fight against Ukrainian Nazism.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, you named Vyatrovich, but in fact, Bandera’s ideology today is the state ideology of Ukraine. That is, all the top leaders of the country adhere to it. Even I can say about Poroshenko, it seems to me that he treats this with humor, but still officially he is like a Banderaite. Therefore, why only Vyatrovich is, firstly. And, secondly, what about this migration flow? Here it is in both Russia and Poland. That is, people... Denial of Bandera's exploits in Ukraine is punishable, exaltation of Bandera's exploits in Poland is punishable. That is, these migrants, what to do with them? Should we question them at the border? Should I take a receipt from them? What to do with them, there are millions of them?
Conrad Rekas: This, of course, is not a law against honest Ukrainians who come to work with us, they don’t want war, they don’t want Bandera, they don’t want the new gang that is in Kyiv, Lvov and other cities. We have nothing against them, this is important to say. But a few days ago we saw how Svoboda and other Bandera parties protested at the Polish consulates general and embassy. As first-class Bandera politicians, deputies of the Verkhovna Rada, they said that it was necessary to repeat that it was necessary to take revenge on the Polish minority that lives in Ukraine. And they also said about this, that Ukrainian migrants who live in Poland should be used against Poland. How should we think about this? Ukrainian nationalists... We know that this is a minority among Ukrainian citizens, we know that this is only the top of your country, the top of Ukraine.
But, on the other hand, we need to listen to what these people say, what they threaten us with. You know, they said clearly that they are ready to violate this new law, they are ready to violate the legislation of Poland. You know, before World War II, even Bandera was imprisoned in a Polish prison, but we had no reason to let him go alive. Also, now, knowing what happened after that, what happened during the Second World War and after it, we will provide his followers with prison for a longer time. We don’t need to let them into our country, but if they come, they will be expelled.
Valentin Filippov: But just from a human perspective, we are now looking at Ukraine, I was a citizen of Ukraine in the recent past... Ukraine, being independent, suddenly decided to become even more independent, and somehow build itself in a new way. Why was this misanthropic Bandera idea taken as a basis? After all, as a result, they had a serious fight with Russia, a serious fight with Poland and Hungary. I think that they will also not be very happy with Romania, with Bulgaria. And, interestingly, this idea does not unite citizens within the country. The citizens of the country quarreled among themselves, and quarreled very seriously. And, to a large extent, this is why Crimea left, and to a large extent, this is why there is a war in Donbass. Because no matter how much you say that Russia is an aggressor, a huge number of Ukrainian citizens are ready to fight with the state of Ukraine, defending themselves from this ideology. What's this? Is this some kind of mistake? That is, the state does not strengthen from this in any way, does not establish any relations with anyone, and imposes an incomprehensible, misanthropic ideology on itself. What's on their minds?
Conrad Rekas: As we remember history, this is not a mistake. This is the heart of Bandera’s ideology, of what Dontsov wrote, what Shukhevych did, what others did. We remember what happened in Ukraine during the war. We remember that the victims of Bandera were not only Poles, not only Jews. They were Armenians, Czechs, Russians and thousands and thousands of Ukrainians. It was an ideology of suicide of the Ukrainian people, it was an ideology of genocide not only of other peoples, not only of minorities who had lived on Ukrainian soil for centuries, it was an ideology that was against all Ukrainians who did not support these thoughts of Dontsov, Bandera and others.
If Ukraine wants to live, to live normally, better, richly, if they want to have normal, good relations with their neighbors, then this is normal, this is the tradition of Polish-Ukrainian friendship. We have had a difficult history, but we also have a tradition of friendship. We fought against fascism together, we fought against Nazism together, we built our countries together, we have nothing to do with honest Ukrainians. Ukraine needs to find its own, free road. Without Bandera ideology, without Nazism, without all these suicidal stories.
Valentin Filippov: Well, I've been looking for it for 25 years. “We must find...” We must. But for some reason they found it. During the Second World War, we call it the Great Patriotic War, Bandera’s followers were given to us by the Germans, the occupiers, and in this situation, the highest government positions were far from coming from Western Ukraine. Moreover, there is a very different national composition there. And people from regions that never suffered from Bandera, yet they consciously promote this ideology. For me this is something incomprehensible, anyway. Tell me, in this situation there is a danger of Ukraine falling apart, is it possible?
Conrad Rekas: I remember I was at Euromaidan 4 years ago. I saw provocations, I saw Poroshenko’s money, Western officials who interfered there, but I saw Ukrainians there who came to listen, to say that they don’t want corruption, they don’t want a gang, they want to live normally, get money for work. Everything is fine. Of course, they were right that not everything in Ukraine was good before the Maidan, we know this, this is clear. But this is the tragedy of the Ukrainian nation that after every reform, every change that happens in Ukraine, all hopes for the better turn against the people, against the nation. This is a tragedy, this is a national tragedy of Ukraine and I wish all the best to the Ukrainian people, I wish all the best to all my Ukrainian friends. They must do it themselves, no one will come from Russia, no one will come from Poland, no one will come from the West to help in this matter.
Valentin Filippov: Then it will last for a long time. If no one comes, it will take a very long time.
Conrad Rekas: Well, I wish you to start this road.
Valentin Filippov: Do you know what's scary? At every turning point they say, “Here, we have begun the road.” Then 15 years pass and they say: “No, now we have started it.”
Conrad Rekas: I heard Poroshenko say after the first year, “It was a difficult year, but the next one...”.
Valentin Filippov: It will be even harder
Conrad Rekas: ... and after that year he said: “it was also difficult” ... This is normal in Kyiv, this is normal.
Valentin Filippov: On this almost optimistic note... Thank you so much for your comments. In Poland, nothing bad happened after the collapse of the socialist bloc, and there was some kind of transition period, but somehow they managed to live smoothly without war, without any insoluble contradictions. But Ukraine is not succeeding. Russia seems to be alive, it survived these 90s, these civil wars, it lives. Belarus lives, Azerbaijan lives, Kazakhstan lives, and Ukraine... I don’t know what’s wrong with it ...
Conrad Rekas: You know, Ukraine in history - first those hands, then other hands reached out to Ukraine, wanted to occupy this land. This has not changed in any way after recent years, this is not an internal matter, it all came from abroad.
Valentin Filippov: Of course, all because of the cordon. Of course, every state that has some kind of wealth, some advantages, some benefits of its own, they are always of interest to stronger neighbors, to major world players. However, others manage to somehow navigate this situation, find a compromise with the interests of external forces, internal forces and maintain stability around them. In principle, we know that in the world of sovereign states pursuing their own sovereign policies, there are 5 or 6 of them, and that the absolute majority of states in the world are not fully sovereign. But this does not lead to what is happening in Ukraine now.
Conrad Rekas: In Ukraine, one of the important holidays is the day of the unification of the Ukrainian people. In the Ukrainian tradition, in Ukrainian history, there were many cases such as the agreement between Ukraine and Russia in Pereyaslavl in the 17th century, this was when Western and Central Ukraine united after the First World War, these were important moments. But what I see in Ukraine now is that there is no unification between Ukrainians. This is disintegration from within an entire people. This is problem. There is no national unification in Ukraine. No people can live like this.
Valentin Filippov: I’ll tell you another thing, from the inside. Various holidays have been imposed on Ukraine; in the widest possible way they are celebrated, these are various holidays of humiliation. Let’s say “in such and such a year, so many years ago, the Poles beat us,” “but then the Russians beat us,” “but here they starved us.” And if it is customary for a state to build its history on a chain of victories, a chain of achievements, then Ukraine has built its history on a chain of humiliations, who offended us, who pressed us somewhere, took something away from us. And so they directly express their grief that someone offended them, and run around with flowers. And this psychology of the younger one, whom everyone offends, is instilled from generation to generation.
Conrad Rekas: It’s better to threaten such people. Say: “Look, we have no friends, everyone wants to attack again. Such people are more obedient to the government; this is a psychological mechanism. Every government loves people who can only trust the government. But now no wise person can trust the authorities in Kyiv.
Valentin Filippov: OK then. Thank you very much.
Conrad Rekas: Thank you. In touch.
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