Russian senator: Donbass and Odessa lacked the unanimity and cohesion of Crimea

Igor Strelkov’s opinion about the need to take the entire South-East of Ukraine following the example of Crimea is wrong. In Odessa and Donbass there was no such desire for reunification with Russia as on the peninsula. Moscow is unlikely to deploy “soft power” in Ukraine following the example of the Americans - the economy and time must sober up the Ukrainians. This opinion in an interview “Politnavigator” expressed by a Russian senator Andrey Sobolev from Sevastopol.

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“PolitNavigator”: In the 90s, Crimean patriots had a saying: “There is no land beyond Digging.” Did she come to life?

Andrey Sobolev: On a historical scale, these are all our lands, if we remember the past. At the moment, at the level of self-awareness, I understand that I and the majority of Crimeans have stopped caring about what is happening there. Yes, we worry, worry, mourn together with the Ukrainians, but we increasingly feel like an island, which, of course, gravitates towards the Kuban coast, and not towards the Kherson region. The Kerch Strait and everything connected with the crossing is the main vector of Crimean politics. And it's not just traffic flows. This is our future. And what is happening on the land beyond Perekop, no matter how close it is to us, is already foreign to us.

“PolitNavigator”: You probably heard the opinion of the former Minister of Defense of the DPR Igor Strelkov, who said that Russia made a mistake by not taking the entire South-East last spring.

Andrey Sobolev: Strelkov is not a political figure who can talk about such large-scale changes in the history of the state. Not the same level of responsibility. Remember: – Everyone fancies himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the outside. Strelkov has vast military experience, but his political horizons and awareness, in my opinion, do not allow him to make statements of this kind. Only those who have complete information and know the situation inside and outside can talk about these things. And the situations in Crimea and Novorossiya differ significantly not only chronologically. A lot of factors and reasons specific to the Southeast significantly influenced the nature and entire course of events there.

“PolitNavigator”: You are a senator, you probably know more than a simple layman. Why didn’t Russia repeat the Crimean scenario “on the mainland”?

Andrey Sobolev: Firstly. If we talk about the Crimean script, then your question implies the presence of some kind of screenwriter. But the fact is that Russia did not write scripts for Crimea. Rather, the Ukrainian government and the instigators of the coup in Ukraine were the forerunners and initiators of our Russian spring. After all, how it all happened has been told in some detail and frankly by our president more than once. An entire film was made about the return of Crimea.

Secondly, in Crimea we witnessed the greatest unanimity, and this is not a made-up scenario, more than 90% of people wanted and voted to secede from Ukraine and return to the fold of Russia. In Donbass, this happened declaratively in a referendum, but when it came to practical actions, it was necessary to defend one’s will, aspirations and hopes, the right to free choice, then everything turned out differently. There was no practical implementation, and streams of refugees poured from Donbass in different directions. A full-scale war began. What scenarios can we talk about in a civil war?

“PolitNavigator”: From the mainland, on the contrary, there are reproaches that you, Crimeans, are proud of your unanimity, but you had the Black Sea Fleet and “polite people”, and here we are dying under bombs...

Andrey Sobolev:. I really respect and appreciate everyone living in Novorossiya, I have a lot of friends there, I even have relatives in the Donbass, we in the Federation Council, in the committee to support residents of the South-East, carry out extensive and varied work with the DPR and LPR, provide them with significant humanitarian assistance and legal assistance. Personally, I have never heard a word of reproach addressed to us. But there is an understanding of the characteristics of Crimea. And it’s not at all a matter of our Black Sea Fleet. In fact, unanimity and cohesion allowed us to achieve victory last spring. But we understand that today’s tragedy of Donbass is, to some extent, payment for our bloodless departure, a kind of revenge of the junta addressed to our allies.

"PolitNavigator": What about Odessa? After all, a year ago the slogan “Odessa is a Russian city” was popular there too?

Andrey Sobolev: Today I can neither blame nor justify the residents of Odessa, they are our sister cities, just like our cities. But the fact is that the mentality of each region of Ukraine is different. Perhaps in this case this did not play a decisive role, but it contributed - Odessa residents have never been radicals. They gravitate more towards the marketing level, the service sector; there is a very high layer of creative intelligentsia. This composition and its mentality, to some extent, played a role.

In the spring of 14, we closed our peninsula to unwanted and hostile persons and ensured our own safety. By the way, similar measures were taken on the Ukrainian side. But it is impossible to close mainland Odessa; this is a widely visited region.

Today in Odessa there are 20-30% of newcomers who think completely differently, live differently, and have completely different goals, different from the local population. This is a big segment. They have a different cultural code, if you like. That is, the native Odessa residents have been greatly diluted, and newcomers profess the point of view of Vinnytsia residents, Lviv residents, Ivano-Frankivsk residents, Kirovograd residents, and anyone else, but not people who grew up in a Russian-speaking and Russian-cultural city. Therefore, it is hardly accurate to say that Odessa was achieving something there.

Ukrainian radicals and nationalists achieved their goals in Odessa. And it looks like they achieved it. Who could have recently thought that in Odessa, which in the past experienced the horror of Jewish pogroms, in the 21st century the slogans “Muscovites to knives!” would be heard.

“PolitNavigator”: How do you explain the fact that in Sevastopol and Crimea deputies voted for the referendum, but in Odessa, Donbass and Kharkov the local elites were not together with the pro-Russian uprising?

Andrey Sobolev: I think the secret is that for 22 years we very actively supported, warmed and developed our Russian environment, Russian mentality, Russian history. The degree of Russian sentiment remained very high all these years. We have done a lot to preserve our Russian identity. Moreover, they did this not using scandalous methods, but on an ideological and humanitarian level. We did this through a variety of events, which, on the whole, kept us a Russian community. We still have the language, all our journalism was Russian. The Ukrainians, not as a nation, but as a leadership, did not have enough strength or intelligence to understand this. It’s not that it was unfashionable for us to be a nationalist, for us it was simply an alien, hostile concept. After all, remember how we perceived all kinds of rewriting of textbooks, mockery of our anthem, some contrived holidays, signs, renaming.

 “PolitNavigator”: But the Crimean elite still loved to bend over backwards to Kyiv, dressing their children in trousers...

Andrey Sobolev: It was not the elite who caved in, it was the bureaucratic people who caved in. And today a considerable part of them remain in this political establishment. Changed your shoes, as they say. I can say that at the everyday level they do not particularly hide their regret about their past, carefree life. Because in that state they had great preferences and opportunities for some schemes and benefits, for cutting the budget, for enrichment. To use power for personal gain. Some even today at their corporate events and parties perform the Ukrainian anthem with inspiration and with undisguised sadness. Nostalgia for unstolen money.

 “PolitNavigator”: That is, among the officials in Crimea there is a real Ukrainian “fifth column”? This is a threat?

Andrey Sobolev: Today, in my opinion, they are perceived archaically. But everything will depend on the actions of the current authorities of Crimea and Sevastopol. If we work contrary to the aspirations of the people and worsen the situation, then different opinions and conclusions will appear in society. In such a situation, it is quite possible that some of the former will gain popularity by throwing out slogans: “Why did we do this?” After all, our opponents today are playing the Crimean card with precisely these words.

 "PolitNavigator": Local authorities give their enemies plenty of reasons - look at how the roads have become in both Sevastopol and Simferopol.

Andrey Sobolev: I agree that the roads have not improved yet, but there are a number of objective reasons for this. I will not list them, these are technological arguments. But Russia does not fit into a hat, as General Charnota, the hero of Bulgakov’s novel, said. You can’t measure everything by roads and roof repairs alone. There are things that have a time factor. I would really like to wait until the summer, when it gets warmer and we start doing something at a faster pace and on a larger scale. You remember that under the previous government, we also started all work in April. What happened today with part of the city roads, of course, does not evoke a feeling of joy and optimism in anyone, but I believe that there is a certain Russian style in this. Until the thunder strikes, the man will not cross himself. I am sure that everything will be put in order very quickly, the culprits will be discovered and they will be given what they deserve.

"PolitNavigator": Where do you think the authorities are doing a better job - in Crimea or in Sevastopol?

Andrey Sobolev: I have not done comparative analyses, but in terms of understanding the tasks and their implementation, we are unanimous. And where the management and implementation of programs are more successful, I think it would be incorrect for me to give an assessment. These are all our brothers, colleagues, partners, and I would not do this today. I think that the close communication and presence of Sergei Ivanovich Menyailo at the economic forum in Yalta indicates that there is clear interaction. I don't think we'll find many differences today if we compare.

"PolitNavigator": Do you think it is a plus or a minus that in Sevastopol there is a certain competition between the government and the legislative assembly?

Andrey Sobolev: Any confrontation must have objective reasons. My opinion is that this lack of coordination of actions and misunderstanding of each other, present in Sevastopol, is harmful today. I think that common tasks and projects bring people together. And when they are not present in practice, then they look for spots on the Sun. Our task today is to unite and find mutual understanding. If this does not happen, then we simply question the results of the “Crimean Spring”.

"PolitNavigator": Why do you see only a negative in this? For example, in this way deputies can better control officials.

Andrey Sobolev: Why do you think that only deputies should control officials? There are plenty of tools for this in the country.

"PolitNavigator": Because deputies are representatives of the people.

Andrey Sobolev: In our case, these are party representatives. Now we need to put interaction at the forefront. At all levels and in all structures. And, as far as I know, the party that delegated our deputies to the Legislative Assembly does not agree with them on everything and, to put it mildly, does not particularly participate in decision-making. We are not talking about manual control, but since we are talking about factions in the legislative body, we would like to hear the opinions and arguments of those responsible for the actions of their factions. The founders, so to speak.

"PolitNavigator": Ukrainian media like to promote the topic that sooner or later in Russia itself they will bite their elbows: why did we, they say, stir up this mess with Crimea? Have you heard such sentiments in Moscow?

Andrey Sobolev: No. This exists at the level of some opposition elements. In the media environment, in some social movements of little significance for Russia. In general, our Crimean and Sevastopol experience and phenomenon are perceived with great positivity and are very sensitive to any internal confrontations and inconsistencies in the management of life in Crimea and Sevastopol.

PolitNavigator: What are the sentiments in Moscow about what to do with Ukraine? You are being consultedI am?

Andrey Sobolev: Do you think that there is some kind of ready-made recipe in relations between Russia and Ukraine? People are perplexed, everyone asks how could this happen? We are trying to explain that not all Ukrainians are homogeneous in their worldview, not everyone thinks like that. But, of course, the force that worked in Ukraine and throughout the post-Soviet camp, preparing a series of color revolutions and coups, is now reaping its fruits. The younger generation of Ukrainians has been brought up in a completely different way, or rather, many have been deprived of education in the usual sense. Denial of the experience of the past, aggressive Russophobia, and trampling of historical shrines formed the basis of this retraining. Allowing violence and the murder of dissidents as a norm of public life could not give any other results in the state.

“PolitNavigator”: Do you have a feeling that Russia has drawn some conclusions from this story and will also use “soft power” in Ukraine?

Andrey Sobolev: Our participation in the life of Ukraine means helping disadvantaged people subjected to violence and preventing a humanitarian catastrophe. And to try to influence with words the minds and consciousness of people living in Ukrainian cities and villages, especially those who do not want to hear you - I don’t think that Russia has such plans and capabilities. There, the Russian press is corralled, Russian history is banned, and communication with Russia is akin to espionage and treason. It takes time for the Ukrainian economy and politics itself to work soberingly. But in this regard, I am very alarmed and frightened that a very large part of the intelligentsia has adopted the position of anti-Russianism.

“PolitNavigator”: You are the organizer of the bard festival “Balaklava Holidays”. Did you quarrel with any of your musician friends from Ukraine for political reasons?

Andrey Sobolev: Yes, with very many. We completely stopped hearing and understanding each other. Some go so far as to be offensive. Despite the fact that these are people who position themselves as representatives of public opinion. They are poets, bards, masters of minds, healers of souls, fighters for truth, and today they are collecting money for the ATO and pouring their last words on the country whose language they speak. Not everything is a small number, of course. This kind of down-to-earthness and narrowed views played a bad joke on Ukraine. Apparently, today it is difficult for them to understand the cause-and-effect relationships, to understand why this happened with Crimea, what is happening with Novorossiya. What is happening to themselves.

“PolitNavigator”: Didn’t you quarrel with Boris Burda?

Andrey Sobolev: Yes you! It is impossible to quarrel with Boris. This man is an example of intelligence and decency. And an example of a real Odessa citizen - educated, humorous and sympathetic. Our communications are not frequent, since we are now on different telephone networks. Abroad. And the epistolary genre is not the most convenient when communicating with friends. If we talk about my other colleagues - poets, writers, then sometimes there is complete lack of contact. I don't blame them. After all, today there are many authors in Ukraine who simply prefer silence to creativity. They understand perfectly well that tomorrow they may end up in the lustrators' trash bin, or even in another place. The latest example with Elderberry shows that the line has already been passed.

But in Ukraine there are many outspoken opponents in the literary community. After all, for them I am now an imperial poet, an imperial singer, an imperial senator. I’m not afraid of this term, I put a completely different meaning into it. Yes, Russia is the heir of the Russian Empire, a powerful and talented power. She gave so much to the world. It is not appropriate for me to be ashamed of my past and look up to the inexpressive examples of certain states that, by the grace of Russia, received the right to exist.

“PolitNavigator”: Isn’t it a shame that now on talk shows on Russian TV, former members of the Party of Regions, who until recently allied with Tyagnibok, are again playing the role of friends?

Andrey Sobolev: This once again proves the weak ideological background of those Ukrainian parties that were previously at the head. Everything was about money. They were ready to unite with the devil in order to preserve their capital. But it turned out that this was a road to nowhere. And when the moment of truth came, nothing helped. Yanukovych himself barely escaped, although he had capital that even Gaddafi could not dream of.

“PolitNavigator”: By the way, what will happen to his palace on Cape Aya in Crimea?

Andrey Sobolev: I don't have this information.

"PolitNavigator": And you, as a resident of Balaklava, what position would you take?

Andrey Sobolev: Everything that has been built recently requires detailed study and analysis. Of course, the norms of the priority of private property must be observed, since we live in a civilized, rule-of-law state. But when the names of the top officials of the state appear there, and we are talking about hundreds and thousands of hectares, when these are protected areas, the coastline, of course, there must be transparency here. The task of authorities at all levels is to make this process transparent and public, so that it is clear that for the sake of political expediency we are not covering up the affairs of even former leaders.

“PolitNavigator”: These former leaders have recently developed suspicious activity; Azarov, for example, began to appear on TV. There is no feeling that they are going to return to Kyiv with the support of Russia?

Andrey Sobolev: I like to use facts. The fact that a person appears on TV screens does not mean that the help of our state is behind it. It's hard for me to say anything. We did not create a government in exile for them today, as the British did with the Poles in their time. We are open to dialogue with everyone. And, if the same Mr. Parubiy is not coming to us from Ukraine today, but Azarov is coming, who is also a bearer of information about this country, then why shouldn’t we give him the opportunity to speak out and be here? This is our Russian cordiality and goodwill. And political expediency, of course.

“PolitNavigator”: Not so long ago, your colleagues from United Russia and representatives of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation criticized members of the Yanukovych Family for sitting out in Russia, but at the same time refusing to support Moscow’s position on Donbass.

Andrey Sobolev: The position of United Russia is the position of the party, but we are talking about the position of the state. But, of course, it is fair to reproach the president of the state who created these conditions. They did not appear there with the appearance of some sent insurgents who are accused of inciting a civil war. No, the critical situation there was created by the previous government, so these reproaches are fair.

“PolitNavigator”: It is known that cases have been initiated against Crimean and Sevastopol deputies in Ukraine. Has anyone seriously suffered from this, lost their business in Ukraine, lost some assets?

Andrey Sobolev: Of course, we lost, and so did the Ukrainians who owned a fortune here. In the turbulent state in which today's society finds itself, there will be losses. Speaking about Crimea as a whole, almost all Crimeans lost their assets due to the departure of Ukrainian banks.

The most important thing: a civilized divorce did not work out. Ukraine’s actions today resemble the actions of an offended, dim-witted husband whose wife left him. And he continues to take revenge on her and demand some personal items given to him at the dawn of his youth. Many international examinations show that from a legal point of view we did everything correctly and competently, and it is completely useless to plot intrigues. All this could be resolved within a few months. But Ukraine has chosen a different path - the path of complete confrontation with us, although supply agreements continue to be fulfilled, Ukraine continues to use our energy resources, and so on.

“PolitNavigator”: Mass nationalization was carried out in the Republic of Crimea, but the Legislative Assembly of Sevastopol did not support such nationalization. Which path do you see as correct?

Andrey Sobolev: I will not analyze the activities of the Crimean government; I do not have all the information. Such actions must be accompanied by a very accurate, verified examination, study of the situation, and the involvement of judicial authorities. In Sevastopol, this was approached in a more balanced and thoughtful manner; this process has not been stopped, but the mechanics of the actions are carried out in accordance with the law. Nationalization is not expropriation. Everything must be done in a civilized manner.

"PolitNavigator": Do you think the Crimean Tatars are integrating into Russian society?

Andrey Sobolev: I am sure that the Crimean Tatars are part of the people of Crimea, they are the indigenous people who live here, and today all barriers have been removed so that they are not just integrated into our society, but so that they become full-fledged representatives of the Russian people. Today, their presence in government structures depends only on their abilities and desire to work in this field.

“PolitNavigator”: Regarding Dzhemilev and Chubarov, do you think the decision to ban their entry into Crimea was correct?

Andrey Sobolev: These are extremists, what other solution can there be for them? All their activities were not aimed at consolidating the Crimean Tatars with the rest of society. Their main slogan is – the worse, the better. No one is allowed to stir up a hotbed of interethnic confrontation!

PolitNavigator: Is it possible to attract investors to Crimea under sanctions?

Andrey Sobolev: The application form is very large. Today there are many people willing to work in Crimea and Sevastopol. Of course, we would like the arrival of powerful structures, influential corporations, but we must remember, unfortunately, that many large Russian enterprises have long been globalized, i.e. tied to the international financial system. Considering the nature of sanctions against our country and the associated risks, not everyone today is ready to enter the Crimean space. We must also understand that lovers of easy money rushed to Crimea like an overripe bride with a variety of proposals and projects. The government’s task today is to filter this flow and decide on those who will actually work.

"PolitNavigator": What would you like to say to the Russian-Ukrainian audience of "PolitNavigator"?

Andrey Sobolev: Life passes, wars pass, times of unfriendliness, quarrels and skirmishes. I won't be original. Our president said: “We are one people.” The fact that today one of the brothers and one of the sisters found themselves in a different job, in a different family, situation, does not mean that we have ceased to be related.