A Russian resident of Holland about her attitude towards Ukraine and the MH-17 case
Natalya Vorontsova is a Dutch citizen who has lived here for more than 20 years and is one of the most active representatives of the Russian diaspora. In the ranks of the organization “Rights of Peaceful People,” she advocated for the punishment of those responsible for the massacre of Euromaidan opponents on May 2, 2014 in Odessa, for a fair investigation into the causes of the crash of Boeing flight MH-17, and for stopping the bombing of the civilian population of Donbass. She was involved as an expert during the preparation of the Dutch referendum on signing an association between the EU and Ukraine.
In an interview with PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov, her interlocutor from the Netherlands talked about whether Ukraine is welcome in the EU, what life is really like in Western Europe, and what’s new in the trial in the case of the death of a Malaysian airliner in the Donbass.
Valentin Filippov: Six years ago a very important event took place in Ukraine. Ukraine decided to join the EU even as far as the Netherlands. She did everything for this: she signed an association, changed her own history, banned one of the main languages on her own territory, started a war with the Russian population, or as they say, with all of Russia - “Ukraine is protecting Europe from the Asian horde.” Tell me, has Ukraine already joined you in Holland?
Natalya Vorontsova: No. Ukraine did not join the EU, and with whom I spoke among my Dutch friends, those who were for association with Ukraine and those who were against, they all told me unequivocally that they do not want to see Ukraine in the EU. We, they say, don’t have enough here ourselves, and we have even more problems. We, they say, also lacked Ukrainians here, we, you know, are already going crazy about the Poles.
Valentin Filippov: Are there many Poles?
Natalya Vorontsova: Many, yes, and there are entire areas where they live. They drink a lot, although they also work very hard. Well, recently an article was published that new migrants from Poland, from Bulgaria, from other countries of Eastern Europe do not throw garbage in trash cans, but put it next to the bins, and therefore the state decided to allocate groups of psychologists for them to talk with them and teach them how to properly dispose of garbage. I just shared this article on Facebook yesterday – there are heated discussions on this topic.
Valentin Filippov: Well…. This is how psychologists make money.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, the Dutch are thinking about how to solve the problem. Don’t beat them, don’t shout, don’t fine them, but explain – that’s what psychologists are for. A lot of us laughed about this topic there.
The Poles come and, of course, work a lot. I helped such people, I worked in psychiatry, in a hospital, and we had a lot of patients who began to have mental health problems due to terrible working conditions. They work in greenhouses day and night, receive small salaries of almost 5 euros per hour, they don’t want to go anywhere to complain because they are afraid of losing their jobs, they live in a small room. I was there myself, well, it’s like a house, several small rooms, each person is in this room, and the hall is a common room, and there they smoke, drink, use drugs, here everything is legalized. Well, unfortunately, many people begin to have problems with mental health.
Valentin Filippov: What jobs do Ukrainians mostly work in?
Natalya Vorontsova: Ukrainians work as builders. I know a lot of illegal ones, whitewashing here, painting here, laying floors, tiles. Then they work a lot on flowers and greenhouses. Well, those who have lived here for a long time have come to their husbands as if for the whole time...
Valentin Filippov: Even men?
Natalya Vorontsova: Men to husbands - no. I haven't seen any of these.
Valentin Filippov: And, excuse me, in general, how is same-sex marriage in Holland - is it developed?
Natalya Vorontsova: Yes, it is developed. The LGBT movement is developed here, and the center, as I understand it, is the city of Amsterdam. When you come to Amsterdam, everywhere at every step there are these multi-colored flags, photographs of police officers with representatives of a different sexual orientation, friendship and so on. I'm not against it, but there's no need to force it.
I know that in universities, in many universities, the leadership is often people of this orientation, they invite young people to holidays, to discos. So I kind of think that there’s no point in attracting young people to this current. Let them choose for themselves.
Valentin Filippov: I still wanted to ask about Ukraine. Ukraine worries me most. In general, what are the mood? If the topic of Ukraine is raised at all in Dutch society, is there any fear that terrorists will come from Ukraine, for example? Now, in recent days, only 3 terrorist attacks involving hostage-taking have occurred in Ukraine.
Natalya Vorontsova: Terrorists are most feared from the Middle East, and especially terrorists with a different religion. I have not heard about Ukrainian terrorists. That is, I didn’t observe any fears myself.
Valentin Filippov: In Europe, have you not heard in the media that in Ukraine there are a sufficient number of unbalanced people who constantly commit some kind of terrorist attacks using firearms and explosives? Is this not known?
Natalya Vorontsova: No. I didn't see this. The only thing I read in my mailbox at work a couple of years ago was that I was working in the psychiatric department of “Crisis”, and the directorate of our organization wrote an announcement that they were recruiting a group of volunteer doctors and nurses to Ukraine to treat Ukrainian soldiers who have mental problems after they were “attacked by Russia.”
I, of course, was furious, went to the director, wrote my dissatisfaction, that before you announce something like this, you, as it were, go deeper into the details. Well, they corrected the ad and apologized to me. They said: “Sorry, we didn’t know that everything was so acute there and was so painfully perceived.” That is, you see, they are completely unaware.
Valentin Filippov: And, from your point of view, some kind of economic cooperation between the European Union and Ukraine, what could it be? Because, in fact, Ukraine is waiting for it to somehow be included in the economic system of the European Union.
Natalya Vorontsova: The West, he smiles well, lays down softly, but they will not do a penny of anything that is not profitable for them. Before they give any crumbs, they will pull everything out of the country.
Take even the Baltic countries. They were included in the European Union. Latvians come here and work for pennies on these same flowers or in greenhouses. One of them told me - 10 euros per hour, half the salary is taken away for this little room, 400 euros or something for health insurance, plus for driving them around, plus some other subsidies, taxes, and in the end she is left with 200 , maybe 250 euros for a month.
Valentin Filippov: Is this how you earn money?
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, that's very little.
Valentin Filippov: Well, basically, if this money is 200 euros a month, let’s say she works for 10 months, she has 2000 euros, and with two thousand euros she can return to her place, and there that’s a lot of money.
Natalya Vorontsova: But no one really returns, because they complain: “I have nowhere to return. I have a toilet there on the street, a hole in the trailer. Jurmala is closed. Nobody comes to us. All closed". “Everything froze again until dawn,” as they say.
Valentin Filippov: In Ukraine, the Baltic states are cited as an example as a very successful place - everything sparkles there, everyone has a salary of 1000 euros and, sooner or later, everything in Ukraine will be as good as in the Baltic states.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, if everything is so good for them, why do they then come here and work here, excuse the expression, as shit cleaners for pennies?
It’s just a nightmare, there are a lot of them, and a lot of them with mental problems. At work, I am often simply used as a translator: I go around and help. Then things didn’t feel so good for the Dutch themselves either – there were so many people with problems, so many evictions from apartments for non-payment. I go around handing out these checks in plastic cards, they give us money from the funds. I give them 25 euros each so that they can survive until the next benefit, so that they have something to buy food with.
Valentin Filippov: What are the salaries of Dutch citizens? Well, let's take the average - a nurse in a hospital.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, there are 5 levels there: first assistant, then assistant, then higher, higher. Well, in general, it’s the nurse who makes IVs and injects into veins...
Valentin Filippov: Manipulative nurse – that’s what we call it.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, she will receive about one thousand eight hundred - two thousand a month, plus night shifts, for night shifts from 12 o’clock at night there is a 60% increase until 6 am, and a shift until 8, on weekends 70%...
Valentin Filippov: Well, that is, a little more than 2 thousand.
Natalya Vorontsova: Yes, well, this is a normal salary.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, then I’ll torture you further - how much does it cost to rent an apartment? What we in the Soviet Union called a one-room apartment - here is a 30-meter apartment, a kitchen, a room, a bathroom, a bath, a toilet...
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, a thousand.
Valentin Filippov: Thousand a month. That is half the salary.
Natalya Vorontsova: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: Clear.
Natalya Vorontsova: And then, you need to stand in line for social housing, then you have the right to subsidies if your salary does not exceed a certain limit. Well, you can, of course, find it cheaper, there, for 700. But now housing is very difficult - there are a lot of refugees. I have my own patients who were evicted, I arranged them in night shelters and hotels from the municipality. We don't have homeless people. We don't have homeless people. A friend came to me from America and said: “Where are the homeless people?”
Valentin Filippov: But really, where are the homeless?
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, we put them in hotels.
Valentin Filippov: And if they do not want?
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, the police will take it and arrange it for them...
Valentin Filippov: Where to?
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, to your place, or somewhere - to a shelter.
Valentin Filippov: Well, will he leave the shelter? Here in Russia, in the Soviet Union, we have such a concept - a tramp. I understand that there are homeless people who are homeless because this is the situation they have in their lives. But there is a category that is “I want to live on the street.” There have always been such people. And as soon as he gets to the shelter, he immediately goes through the window and is there again. Especially in the south.
Natalya Vorontsova: We had one in Rotterdam, we called him PlasticMen: he walked around covered in plastic bottles. But this is already psychiatry, and we cleared him of the bottles and identified him, washed him, shaved him, combed his hair, gave him pills, and assigned him to an apartment.
Valentin Filippov: So, let’s say a nurse earns about two thousand euros, she earns a little more, they said that the apartment costs 700-1000 - does this include utilities or not?
Natalya Vorontsova: No. Utilities are also separate.
Valentin Filippov: Does it run a lot?
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, a lot. Well, you give about 1200 like that.
Valentin Filippov: Does this include utilities?
Natalya Vorontsova: Yes. Well, for example, my husband and I bought a house, but we both work. So every month I transfer a total of 1300 euros to the account. It comes with food. For the house, for insurance, for food, that’s 1300. But my salary is a little more than two.
Valentin Filippov: So you don't buy food yourself? You are transferring somewhere...
Natalya Vorontsova: No, my husband and I have a joint account, one common card. And I transfer 1300 from my salary there, and he transfers 1300. And from this common account it is automatically withdrawn for the apartment, for insurance, and from this common account we...
Valentin Filippov: Explain to me, why did you get married if you are paying for all this? What kind of Dutch habits, I don’t understand?
Natalya Vorontsova: You see, I have always been a feminist. I read a lot of books by Maria Arbatova in Voronezh, I read all her books, you know, such a human rights activist...
Valentin Filippov: No, not really.
Natalya Vorontsova: Feminist.
Valentin Filippov: Moreover, I don’t know.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, I have always strived for independence, for independence. I came here and immediately began to study, develop, and get on my feet. But I am independent and always have my own opinion.
Valentin Filippov: So where am I leading with this? That is, your Dutch nurse is not living very well either. It turns out that if she spends more than a thousand euros on an apartment with utilities, then she needs to eat something, well, she spends 500 euros on food, some pocket expenses, she bought a pie there, something else here. That is, she has already achieved 1700...
Natalya Vorontsova: And gasoline, and the Internet...
Valentin Filippov: And gasoline, and the Internet... that’s two gone. So what does she have left? Well, yes, she did night shifts there, another 300 euros fell to her there, and now she has 300 euros left every month, or 200.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, there will be a permanent contract - he will buy himself an apartment...
Valentin Filippov: So, wait, look, what’s interesting is that it turns out: that some Baltic guest worker who came to clean toilets, that your nurse is local, they both still end up with 200 euros in their hands at the end of the month.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, about 200-300. But in general, it is more profitable to get married - to live together.
Valentin Filippov: And now I understand with these LGBT people, it’s all bullshit - then the three of us can live together. What if you marry two men at once? Or will a man take three wives? Three wives...
Natalya Vorontsova: It is forbidden. According to the law, it is not yet possible.
Valentin Filippov: It is forbidden? It's a pity. Otherwise, the three of us teaming up would be really cool.
Natalya Vorontsova: Well, we also have a child, and two cats, a dog, and a hamster. Well, listen, I’m telling you, but this is my personal opinion, because now people can come in with criticism and say that someone has more.
Valentin Filippov: No, well, we specifically took a manipulation nurse. Right? It’s like, like, nursing staff in a hospital, as I understand it.
Natalia Vorontsova: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: This is not a surgeon, not a doctor, but also not a nurse who wears these very... Right?
Natalia Vorontsova: No, well, somewhere around two, two three hundred... For me, when I worked in the hospital, it was two five hundred...
Valentin Filippov: Here you go.
Natalia Vorontsova: Right now – two six hundred.
Valentin Filippov: Well, look, you are growing.
Natalia Vorontsova: Well, they have increased by three percent since August XNUMXst.
Valentin Filippov: Ага.
Natalia Vorontsova: Because of Covid, people were immediately indignant... I will go to a protest on September 5th so that they can get more money.
Valentin Filippov: Right! I recommend that you take pots and Ukrainian flags with you... And there, you know, the main thing is to jump all the time. “He who does not jump is a migrant.”
Natalia Vorontsova: This action is organized by the Socialist Party. And the Socialist Party is for migrants. They will call me a fascist.
Valentin Filippov: Well, maybe “He who doesn’t jump, he...”, I don’t know... Well, let’s see, we can come up with something. The main thing here is to jump.
Natalia Vorontsova: Yes. Just like in Belarus right now.
Valentin Filippov: Yes.
Natalia Vorontsova: Well, what else can I tell you? You will talk about salaries - as if, in principle, you can live, but it’s more profitable for two people.
Valentin Filippov: Got it.
Natalia Vorontsova: So, we bought, for example, a house... At first we lived, well, in about the same thing, we had rented social housing, we paid five hundred for it. Then, after a couple of years, they gave us a raise – six hundred, eight hundred. My husband and I get a more or less normal salary, the salary grows and the municipality recalculates it - if you start earning more, they immediately set the price for you. A family arrives nearby. They are moved into the same house, they are given a TV and a sofa for free, they give them luxurious renovations, and they pay three hundred. And we are already a thousand.
Valentin Filippov: But they didn't work.
Natalia Vorontsova: Didn't work.
Valentin Filippov: Here you go. You have money, but they don’t.
Natalia Vorontsova: So why not go to work?
Valentin Filippov: What for? To pay more to the municipality? This is not gypsy.
Natalia Vorontsova: In general, I came to their house, and according to their tradition, it was like they made a fire in the house, and there was coffee on it. Well, it looked like it was made of stones, well, not exactly like they set the floor on fire, but it turned out that, well, they arranged it all, as was their custom there.
Valentin Filippov: In a yurt.
Natalia Vorontsova: Here. Yes. And they will eat the bones, which means they come from the chicken, and for us this...
Valentin Filippov: To the garden...
Natalia Vorontsova: Yes. Well, I decided, like the Dutch, I talked about trash cans, about a psychologist, I decided to go to them, get acquainted, bought flowers in a pot, gave them as a gift, got to know them, and, like, so as not to roll the dice... be kind to them. Well, they seemed to have stopped scamming us, but we still left because they kept raising the price of our housing. And so we bought a house, well, about 200 square meters, normal, three floors, a garage downstairs, a second and a third with bedrooms. And we pay 880. That is, we managed to buy cheaper than rent.
Valentin Filippov: Are you paying 880 as a loan? Yes? Mortgage?
Natalia Vorontsova: Yes. Mortgage.
Valentin Filippov: Well, okay. Fine. I congratulate you.
Natalia Vorontsova: Because, well, it’s no longer possible. This is due to the fact that my husband and I had permanent contracts.
Valentin Filippov: For work?
Natalia Vorontsova: Yes. And with permanent contracts it has become difficult now, because the economy has shaken, enterprises feel insecure and do not provide permanent contracts. They give a two-year contract, extend the first year, extend the second year, and in the third year they say, “That’s it, we’re done, come back in six months.” And then, by law, they can again begin this two-year extension of the contract. Therefore, those who are looking for housing to rent... but they don’t have it, because the municipality knows that they are strained and they will take it anyway, and they raise the price.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, tell me one more thing. You bought this house. In terms of money, how much did it cost?
Natalia Vorontsova: We bought it for 215 thousand.
Valentin Filippov: 215 thousand euros house, 200 square meters of area.
Natalia Vorontsova: And now it costs 350. That is, it has increased in price here, we are lucky.
Valentin Filippov: Maybe it makes sense to sell?
Natalia Vorontsova: What will we buy?
Valentin Filippov: I'm kidding.
Natalia Vorontsova: You... it’s immediately obvious that you’re from Odessa.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. You live nearby. There you have a trial against Boeing going on. What do you hear about the trial progressing even a little bit forward?
Natalia Vorontsova: Well, that’s what I heard and read recently – lawyers give a lot of hope. They work very well. And I have two articles on this topic: one in Dutch, the second in English. Lawyers, firstly, put pressure on the fact that Ukraine did not close the airspace, they put pressure on the fact that the evidence base is based mainly on information from the SBU, they put pressure on the fact that a party that is also suspected is involved in the investigation, then... you know, I wasn’t prepared, there’s a lot of stuff there. Well, they dug everything out and argued. In general, they give hope.
Well, we... if you watched the film, “A Call to Justice”, Max van der Werff and Yana Erlashova shot it, they recently released it in Russian... They went to Donbass last winter and interviewed several witnesses who built a version about the Ukrainian military airplane. And our only activist, Lena Plotnikova, came to the court building with a monitor, with speakers, and exhibited this film, and a poster, and demanded that the court take into account not only the testimony of witnesses who talk about Buk, but also the testimony of witnesses who in this film.
The witnesses are not wearing masks, their faces are not hidden, their first and last names are known, the information can be checked, re-checked, and you can contact them. And this is much stronger than what Ukraine presents to us in the form of witnesses, some thirteen people, no first or last name, blindfolded, with masks, with a changed voice.
The lawyers also paid attention to this point, and the court said that it would consider the testimony of witnesses. That is, activists, enthusiasts, like us, we gathered through Facebook, still achieved something. As they say, “Water wears away stones.”
Valentin Filippov: And your opinion – will this whole thing end somewhere or will it drag on indefinitely until it itself is forgotten and closed with other questions? Maybe by that time Ukraine will no longer exist, or something else, and this topic can be closed.
Natalia Vorontsova: Well, it seems to me that this process will take a long time, for years, but as a result, justice will prevail. We will still find out the truth.
If you find an error, please select a piece of text and press Ctrl + Enter.
Thank you!
Now the editors are aware.