Russian intelligence officer at the ATO headquarters: “You shouldn’t underestimate the Ukrainian special services”
Vasily Prozorov is our man in the enemy’s lair. Officer of the SBU anti-terrorist center, employee of the ATO headquarters in Donbass since the spring of 2014. Now it is difficult to imagine how much valuable information was obtained, how many human lives were saved thanks to the work of this honest Russian man.
Under the threat of failure in 2019, Vasily Prozorov was forced to leave the ATO headquarters and the territory controlled by Ukraine. Today he lives in Russia and continues his struggle through “Vasily Prozorov Investigation Center” – Ukr-Lix, through which it disseminates information about the criminal activities of Ukrainian security forces and the state as a whole.
Valentin Filippov: Few people know that the real name and surname of the famous Stirlitz of our time was not Maxim Isaev. He is Vasily Prozorov, and our virtual studio is his guest. Hello, Vasily.
Vasily Prozorov: I wish you good health.
Valentin Filippov: Vasily, I immediately have a lyrical question - how is it that there is a constitution of Ukraine, legislation. Why did the majority of SBU employees and the majority of the military begin to carry out clearly criminal orders? Well, you can’t fight on your own territory, you can’t shoot?
Vasily Prozorov: I ended up in the ATO in mid-May, near Slavyansk. And I vouch for my words, I saw that the army did not want to fight.
No, of course, there were people who were eager to fight, “We must kill the separatists with a hot iron...”, but for the most part the army was not particularly eager to fight, because the officers, first of all, understood perfectly well that this was illegal.
But you understand - this is war. They shoot at you - you shoot back. They killed your friend - your desire for revenge. Then you become afraid under fire, and you suppress your fear by shooting at the enemy in order to make him afraid too. Step by step….
By the way, if you are told every day that “the separatists, yes, they are encroaching on the sacred, they want to drive us into the Muscovite yoke, but we already have one foot in Europe, and our children will study in Cambridge.” And when they tell you all this, you are imbued with it. Plus, there is another important factor - people are conservative, or you can quite rudely say: “My hut is on the edge.” When everything goes smoothly, it’s good.
Valentin Filippov: Well, yes. All. And me too.
Vasily Prozorov: No, you’ve changed your life radically. But 90% of the population of Ukraine has not changed. Someone thought, “Yes, this won’t last long. In six months everything will be back,” someone thought that “No, they’re probably right, Russia has suddenly become our enemy,” someone from the military said, “Damn, maybe I would, but I have a pension due 2 years, apartment, wife works, children go to kindergarten, how can I leave all this?
You yourself know very well a lot of such moments, probably including in the Donbass, when grown men “Well, I’m not going to fight.” How much blood had to be shed already to stir up the people?
And on the other side it’s the same. People gradually begin to convince themselves that what they are told is correct. I’m just talking about my former colleagues, even there in the Zaporozhye administration...
How many people were there who, before ’14, were so, let’s say, pro-Russian, that is, they sang Lyube’s songs and wore T-shirts with Putin, and then on February 20, ’14 they suddenly suddenly became pro-Ukrainian, pro-European.
And why - yes, because it is necessary then, otherwise, if you consider your ideals to be correct, and you are ready to fight for them, then you need to radically change your whole life. And few people are capable of this.
And then, in order to justify this weakness of theirs, people begin to come up with the version that “Yes, the propaganda that they tell us from Kyiv is correct, and you are enemies” - it’s just as simpler.
Valentin Filippov: That is, you still want to say that if suddenly everything happens the other way around, then they will also say “No, well, probably the propaganda that they tell us from Donetsk is correct.”
Vasily Prozorov: No no no. Valentin, everything will be a little different - they will say, “Damn, how could we be so wrong. It’s not us, we are not to blame, we were fooled by these Banderas from Kyiv, who came in large numbers from Lvov, who simply fooled us, but we, we have always been for Russia.”
Valentin Filippov: Fine. I have a question about those times of the 14th - 15th year. How often did the SBU use some tricks to drag people into some kind of “separatist” business with subsequent arrest?
Vasily Prozorov: Often. I’ll just tell you that, for example, in the structure of the Security Service of Ukraine there is such a department for “counterintelligence protection of state interests in the information sphere” - abbreviated as DKIB.
So in 14, the notorious Yulia Laputina, who is now the Minister of Veterans Affairs, is almost the first female general in Ukraine, she became notorious for leading a group of such headhunters. It was the DKIB specialists who surfed the Internet on pro-Russian groups on social networks, intercepted the administrator’s control rights and received all the complete installation data, and identified the participants in this group.
It was there that they staged provocations, gave fake tasks to a person: “Let’s collect information about the transfer of Ukrainian troops to Donbass.” And after that, Mrs. Laputina and her subordinates detained such people and churned out criminal cases left and right. It was. This is true.
Valentin Filippov: Before talking to you, a story from 15th year came to mind. Once, a man from Odessa wrote to me, as a journalist, and said: “They took all our people, the FSB needs to exchange them somehow.” I said: “What FSB, what are we talking about?”, He says: “Well, we got them.” the task to kill Gutsulyuk” - there is such a fairly small guy in Odessa, a Cossack, some Ukrainian activist, - “And the guys went, guarded where necessary, but instead the SBU tied them up, and they are all in prison.” And he began to prove to me that an FSB officer gave him this task, somewhere in Simferopol, he named some address, at this address, naturally, nothing is located, he named the name of this FSB officer. The guys actually received a task from some person who came and said that he was Putin’s envoy and they needed to kill Gutsulyuk. “Stand on this road, he will pass by and you will kill him.”
But in fact, there are such personalities in Odessa that if you stop any Odessa resident on the street, introduce yourself as an FSB employee and say that you have a task to kill this person, they will start helping you. Again, a huge number of people told me that they were told: “Go to Odessa, to Kherson, go, recruit people who are ready to fight in the militia and take them to Donbass.” And as a rule, this also ended with people being laid face down on the asphalt at the station and sent to prison.
Most of these people have already served time, they admitted that Putin personally hired them, they were given 5 years minus 2,5 according to Savchenko’s law. But there are a huge number of such cases. Is this also the actions of the SBU or is it, I don’t know, maybe the Maidanists organized some kind of voluntary activities?
Vasily Prozorov: Valentin, I kind of do the same, with your permission, as they like to say, true story - a real story similar to yours. In the summer of 14, I did not participate in this, I know first-hand, from the participants - from employees of the Zaporozhye department of the SBU, in the summer of 14 the real story, when former officials of the Yanukovych government, close to Mr. Zakharchenko, the former Minister of Internal Affairs, they planned to supply weapons for resistance to Ukraine, they planned to deliver them from Crimea to Berdyansk through the Sea of Azov.
And one of those whom they found suddenly turned out to be a staunch supporter of the Maidan. He quickly came to the SBU. The SBU, it must be admitted, played out the combination quite competently, and when people sailed from Crimea with a shipment of weapons, the SBU clearly tied them all up.
That is, the Ukrainian special services should not be underestimated. There are quite a lot of competent specialists there, even despite personnel problems, now there are a lot of fairly competent people left there. And a new generation has grown up that does not have any nostalgic feelings for Russia, for the former Soviet Union, which has been quite competently processed by Western specialists. And they know how to work.
Yes, maybe they are not capable of some kind of super multi-move combinations, but to arrange such a provocation by substituting one’s own man under the guise of an organizer of some kind of resistance movement, who will recruit a whole bunch of people and send them to kill someone...
The fact is that there are a lot of criminal offenses. There is such a thing as the objective side of a criminal offense, and the objective side is characterized by direct intent. That is, even if you were given instructions to kill some Gutsulyuk there, as you say, by a fake FSB agent, but you, not knowing that he was a fake FSB agent, went to deliberately kill this person, then your actions are characterized by direct intent.
Valentin Filippov: Yes of course. Nobody argues.
Vasily Prozorov: At the direction of a foreign intelligence agency. Treason in its purest form. What else – attempted murder. All. The completed crime, and that's it. And this person who is the organizer - they take him out later or pretend that they didn’t catch him, or maybe they actually caught him, but then they exchanged him, and now somewhere in Russia on Russian television he appears under the guise of a patriotic person.
Valentin Filippov: Do you know anything about the Odessa resistance? How serious was this in the eyes of the SBU? I understand that you don’t seem to be from Odessa...
Vasily Prozorov: Well, yes. Honestly, I have never been there, not even once during the entire time I worked in the central office. In principle, the anti-terrorist center where I worked, he visited Odessa only for various exercises, Sea Breeze was constantly held there, but I never got there.
But I had one good friend from the department for the protection of national statehood - DZNG SBU, who was just dealing with the issues of explosions in Odessa, Bessarabian Republic - that’s all, roughly speaking, he was in charge of the southern region of the country.
And he once, during, let’s say, joint informal events, talked about how they delayed, how they developed this group. He said that they had fairly complete information about all these people, and even said that “There were moments when we were waiting for this underground to do something, so that, again, there would be a complete corpus delicti. We could have bred them all much earlier, but let them be something...”
Valentin Filippov: As far as I know, they didn’t really tie anyone up.
Vasily Prozorov: Yes, for the same People’s Rada in Bessarabia...
Valentin Filippov: And what is the People's Rada of Bessarabia - this is what it really was - it was a press conference that was absolutely officially organized, people came to it, and these people were then arrested. These were some journalists, writers, and someone else. And the guys who, in general, blew up something, few of them were caught, in fact.
Vasily Prozorov: I won’t talk about the bombers now, because, I repeat, I don’t quite have the information, but according to this colleague of mine, there were a lot of detainees then.
Valentin Filippov: Detained - yes. There were many detainees.
Vasily Prozorov: Someone was changed...
Valentin Filippov: I think they changed them in January or December before last - I think there were five guys there who were accused of bombings in Odessa. And four of them were, as the song about Stalin sang: “As it turned out, they had nothing to do with it.” They once participated in the Anti-Maidan, and they are like “Guskov is suitable for this.”
Vasily Prozorov: Well, I’ll be back, here’s a digression regarding the People’s Rada of Bessarabia. From your point of view it was just a press conference and so on and so forth. And on the part of the special services and law enforcement agencies of Ukraine, this was a serious attempt up to the separation of the southern regions from Ukraine, and this was discussed at a closed meeting... A whole bunch of documents that set tasks for the SBU, the National Guard, the border service, and all regional security agencies, that “Do not allow” and so on and so forth. Such a set of measures was carried out there. I read these documents, there were a lot of events held on this matter. And the counterintelligence department worked at full speed...
Valentin Filippov: As Lena Glishchinskaya told me (according to the prison documents, she is Glishchinskaya, but she is Romanova in general): “I became a separatist in prison, but not right away.” She is an event planning specialist. That is, she was hired to hold another press conference, she has been doing this all her life - holding press conferences for Odessa politicians in the Odessa region. She was made the main one in this Rada of Bessarabia, as far as I know. If you remember, she gave birth in prison, they changed her - they took her by plane, they changed her for a long time. Her son died in Moscow.
Vasily Prozorov: On the other hand, look at this - put yourself in the point of view, for example, of the deputy chairman of the SBU, who oversees issues of protecting national statehood: he has lost Crimea, he has active hostilities in the Donbass, and here is such a thing. Naturally, everything rushes there.
And why, from that moment, as far as I remember, Alpha and the central apparatus were constantly registered in Odessa in the spring. Everything is being pulled together for May 2, reinforced units so that, God forbid, nothing happens. And, by the way, the SBU, largely because of this, began to conduct a lot of force exercises, especially in the southern regions of the country. That is, a demonstration of force, a demonstration of the ability to intimidate some people.
Valentin Filippov: Is the murder of the heroes of the Russian Spring in Donbass really the work of the SBU?
Vasily Prozorov: Yes, sure. I have already spoken about this several times and provided documents that since the spring of 15, after Debaltsevo and the Airport, the Bakhmut highway, the leadership of Ukraine realized that it would not be possible to do anything by force, it was necessary to change the strategy. And the emphasis was placed on sabotage operations and information and psychological operations.
And for sabotage operations, just at that moment, with the help of Western advisers, the 5th Directorate was created within the Counterintelligence Department, the Directorate for Active Counterintelligence Activities, in Ukrainian - “coming in” - AKRZ-5th Directorate.
A specific task was set - work against the republics of Donbass, Russia using methods such as guerrilla warfare, sabotage, and counter-guerrilla operations.
And in 15, the creation of Special Operations Forces in the Armed Forces was also completed. Specifically, purely sabotage and partisan units.
Western specialists had an active hand in the creation of both structures. SBU employees - officers of the 5th Counterintelligence Directorate in Kyiv at the Alpha base in Koncha-Zaspa were trained by specialists from the CIA and US special forces - Green Berets. At the same time, some went to the States to undergo training in sabotage warfare courses.
I think it is the Ukrainian special services that are behind most of the murders in Donbass. The second side of this information operation that they launched against Donbass is that they carried out all these high-profile murders and liquidations under information cover in order to “throw”… shift the blame onto someone else. For this, a variety of possibilities were used, a variety of ideas were put forward, for example, that, there, Zakharchenko was killed during a criminal business showdown, or Zakharchenko was killed on orders from Moscow, because he became too authoritative and uncontrollable, Zakharchenko was killed, there , ...well, I don’t know, all sorts of different ones...
It’s just that there are even names of these information operations that were carried out by the SBU. One of them is called “Spiders in a Jar.” Specifically, within the framework of this operation, the task was to create an image that all these high-profile liquidations were a civil war between different field commanders and, so to speak, Donetsk and Moscow.
“Spiders in a Jar” is a great name. I confirm my words with documents, this is not my invention.
Valentin Filippov: Well, I do not know. That is, it seems to me that Ukraine, for example, partially lost from the death of Zakharchenko. That is, everyone understands that the person who signed the Minsk agreements was killed; it is not customary in the world to eliminate a leader with whom you signed something. This is the first. And secondly, a man in a suit took the place of Zakharchenko, who was wearing a military uniform with a machine gun. And now it is becoming more and more difficult to assert that “There are some terrorist bandits in the Donbass”, because more and more civilians are leading the Republic. People who did not directly participate in the battles were not shot at by the Ukrainian military. It is becoming more and more difficult to explain that there are terrorists there.
Vasily Prozorov: Regarding the Minsk agreements, I will tell you that my deep conviction, again based on the documents... I remember what the situation was then. And just the Donetsk airport, there it was. On the way out he was already buried by these types. The situation in Debaltsevo was extremely difficult, no matter what they say now, what a grandiose victory they had there, how they escaped, inflicted colossal damage, there, on the “orcs from Mordor”...
Valentin Filippov: Yes, yes, I know these beautiful stories.
Vasily Prozorov: In reality, there was a defeat, in reality, they miraculously, one might say, escaped, leaving behind mountains of equipment, ammunition, property, and military equipment. This was a terrible moral blow to the Ukrainian security forces.
And so they made a decision - it was necessary to sign Minsk, only solely in order to get a break, to gather strength, to explain to the electorate why, let’s say, “they made some failures,” to get inspired and prepare for a new offensive.
Because, again, I have documents on how the provisions of these Minsk agreements were passed down to the security forces and how, say, the SBU, which was appointed responsible from the security forces for “preparing a list of measures for the implementation of these Minsk agreements”, how they were carried out there delaying measures, according to the OSCE explanation that “we cannot implement them in full” and so on. Back in '15, in the spring of '15.
And while verbally saying that: “Yes, the Minsk agreements have no alternative,” the Ukrainian side at the same time already actively began to prepare measures in terms of, for example, sabotage operations. That is, something that the Minsk agreements do not allow in principle.
In the same document, roughly speaking, first it goes: “Direct efforts to, there, identify facts of non-compliance with the Minsk agreements on the part of the DPR and LPR, the so-called,” and then two paragraphs later it is written: “Strengthen, intensify sabotage, intelligence work."
Valentin Filippov: I have to tell you this observation from below. I always keep in touch with Odessa, as with my hometown. And both times when the Minsk agreements were signed, arrests began in the city. In general, this is an amazing thing. At the same time, Russian propaganda, let’s call it that, usually said: “Here, the Minsk agreements, finally peace, tomorrow there will be an amnesty for everyone.”
In 14, as I understand it, the Odessa security forces, well, the people who were responsible for this in Odessa, they thought: “Well, I’ll arrest him today, in two months the militia will come here, and what will I say?” , and they seemed to try not to touch anyone. And after Minsk was signed in September on the 5th or 6th, by the end of September arrests began in Odessa of those people who participated in the Anti-Maidan.
I know militiamen, Odessa residents, who were arrested after the first Minsk agreements. They were immediately exchanged for Ukrainian prisoners, and after that they were forced to join the militia and are still fighting. Here.
And the same thing happened in February-March 15th after the signing of the next Minsk-2. Again there was a wave of arrests, a wave of searches, a wave of everything in Odessa about this.
Vasily Prozorov: Well, I think this is not only in Odessa. You understand, Valentin, whatever one may say, the winter campaign of the 14-15s, from a military point of view, was lost by Ukraine.
This is not only Debaltsevo. Now they practically don’t remember the Bakhmut highway, where these two ill-fated checkpoints, 29th and 31st, it seems, were surrounded, which were surrounded. And it was only thanks to negotiations that they were not completely eliminated there. And there the losses were colossal, and primarily the loss of military equipment.
This is the Donetsk airport, which, well, also... they put a lot of people there, namely Ukrainian security forces. This is Debaltsevo. These include battles on the southern sector of the front, Shirokino. This winter offensive, which is so loudly called by the Ukrainian side, is also not so simple there.
Therefore, I think that these arrests that you are talking about are an attempt to compensate for your fear for the fact that “Guys, we were on the brink, on the brink. We probably need to tighten the screws now, because the pro-Russian underground may raise its head, inspired by successes at the front.”
I remember very well, I was then on rotation in Kramatorsk, where the Joint Headquarters of the SBU Central Directorate in the ATO area is still located in the Kramatorsk Hotel. And in January 15, plans for evacuation to the Dnepropetrovsk region were already being developed at this headquarters.
Valentin Filippov: Well, that's reasonable.
Vasily Prozorov: It was written down who decides what, what cars, everything is there... Seriously. Because they seriously believed that the front would collapse after Debaltsevo, the militia, if it moved at least another 20 kilometers, then, roughly speaking, Kramatorsk would be almost within reach, there, well, there are no mortars, but simple barrel artillery, and they seriously planned to move further to the west, away from this... That is, they were afraid, the Ukrainian authorities were really afraid then.
Valentin Filippov: I wanted to ask this thing since you mentioned Kramatorsk. You probably monitored the mood of society in some way? In general, the mood of the population, the relationship between the security forces and the population. Is the population there safe for the Ukrainian security forces?
Vasily Prozorov: In the summer of 17, I remember, I went with the employees of the Main Intelligence Directorate to Avdeevka, well, to the industrial area, there. And there were many GUR employees... well, there were a couple of people who were in the ATO for the first time. And there is the famous nine-story building, the outermost row of high nine-story buildings in Avdievka, where, roughly speaking, all flights from the industrial area, everyone arrives in them. Destroyed nine-story buildings are like this. They are widely known, there is also a huge mural there, a portrait of a teacher covering the entire wall of the building.
And I remember that we stopped near this building, it was so... very sad looking, shot out windows, shell holes in the walls, everything was chipped by shrapnel... and we stopped, and these GUR officers began to photograph the wall of this house with a mural. Here with this large portrait of a teacher, respectively, with traces of military operations.
And a woman passed by, a local woman, she was coming from somewhere, from a store, and she said: “Take off, take off, look what you brought to us in Donbass.” Well, we are in Ukrainian uniform with insignia. That is, she could not have confused it in any way. And it was clear that she was not afraid to say it. Apparently, they are already so tired of this.
But in 14-15, of course, this was more pronounced. The youth frankly said: “Why did you come here?” like “You are there for Bandera, for the Americans.” But then, you see, people get tired and get used to everything. And already, as I understand it, people are saying: “Let anyone be there, as long as there is no war.” Probably so.
Valentin Filippov: Now, with the change of president in the United States, with the imminent elections to the Verkhovna Rada, could something fundamental happen in Ukraine?
Vasily Prozorov: I think no. Fundamentally, do you mean changing the course of development?
Valentin Filippov: Can the war end? Maybe they'll freeze it somehow? Maybe they'll cut it up somehow?
Vasily Prozorov: Valentin, I think you yourself came to the same conclusion very well. Ukraine is not an absolutely independent player. Ukraine is not a subject of foreign policy activity, but an object. Ukraine is not governed from Kyiv...
Valentin Filippov: That's why I mentioned Biden.
Vasily Prozorov: Right. Well, you understand why the United States needs Ukraine. Do you think they need, in a global sense, black soil or Motor Sich, or the ports of Odessa?
Valentin Filippov: Well, they definitely don’t need the port of Odessa.
Vasily Prozorov: Here you go. They are not interested. They are interested in having a springboard for an attack on Russia in the future. And at the moment, there is simply a point of instability right next to Russia. You understand that Russia must maintain deployed military units in the threatened direction. This is a colossal blow to the budget. Russia supports the Donetsk People's Republics, this is also not in vain.
The United States is using Ukraine to weaken the Russian Federation. What will happen inside Ukraine, roughly speaking, “the problems of the Indians do not concern the sheriff.”
Therefore, I am sure that no matter how we change the chairs in the auditorium, the cinema will not change. And Ukraine simply has no other option but to fulfill the role that the West has defined for the country at the current historical stage. Therefore, who will come, or Poroshenko will return again, or, I don’t know, Yarosh will come, well, it will be completely bad...
Valentin Filippov: Who knows?
Vasily Prozorov: Nothing will change.
Valentin Filippov: Listen, are there still many of us in the security forces of Ukraine? Is there anyone else we can rely on, hope for, or believe in?
Vasily Prozorov: Valentin, such a sensitive question...
Valentin Filippov: "I won’t tell you,” right?
Vasily Prozorov: First of all, I’ll say that, of course, I don’t know for sure.
But from my past experience, when I communicated, there were a lot of people who, let’s say, understand everything perfectly. But, again, there are everyday moments, there are a lot of restraints.
You understand... when they tried to catch me there, and I was there for a conversation, let’s say, in the internal security of the SBU, on the eve of my departure, one employee there said to me: “But you often went to Belarus. For what?". I say: “I like the country.” He was like, “What do you like about her?” I say: “And there they don’t ban Victory Day. And the parade is not prohibited.” He hesitated and said: “You understand, we don’t like all this either.” I say: “Well, if you don’t like it, then why are you serving?”
Valentin Filippov: You know, you are now describing to me a conversation with any SBU officer even before the Maidan. When he says: “Why are you so in favor of the Russian language, against the Ukrainian language? This violates the constitution." You tell him: “Well, listen, because Russian is our native language.” And he: “Well, I agree with you, I’m also for the Russian language...”. SBU officers are very fond of saying in conversations: “Yes, I support you too, but you understand, service, service... and so I am for you... just sign here that I had a conversation with you.”
Vasily Prozorov: Well, yes, a preventive conversation
Valentin Filippov: Yes, yes, what did I ask you for an explanation?
Vasily Prozorov: There are such. I remember people from the Special Operations Forces who said that “I understand perfectly well that the United States only needs us to fight as cannon fodder against Russia.” Yes, it’s terrible, but he says, well, I wear shoulder straps, I took the oath, I can’t do it any other way.
Well, I believe that at least there are people who, if something happens, will take a neutral position, there definitely are, and I think there are many of them. But, of course, I want to believe that ours are there too. After all, before I left, let’s say, there were many cases when law enforcement officers worked for Russian intelligence. There were such cases.
Valentin Filippov: I can say one thing. God grant that Russia needs this. You also say that if anything happens, they will take a neutral position... sometimes I have the same impression about Russia, that if something happens, it will take a neutral position.
Vasily Prozorov: We reason at our own level. You see, the higher the level, the amount of information that comes in, it grows not even by an order of magnitude, but by two orders of magnitude. People there understand perfectly well that every action taken can cause such an avalanche of consequences, and what seems to us at our level is clearly correct...
Valentin Filippov: ...and obvious
Vasily Prozorov: ... three levels higher they will tell us “Guys, in tactical we may win, but in strategy we will simply suffer a colossal defeat. Therefore it is difficult to judge. Judge not lest ye be judged. Of course, I feel sorry for the people, and in general for this whole situation... Well, you understand perfectly well. You can't treat her normally. But... we are working, what else can we do? This is already our destiny.
Valentin Filippov: Well, then, on this positive note, that this is our destiny, and we can’t escape it anywhere, I thank you...
Vasily Prozorov: No, Valentin, victory will still be ours, simply because the truth is on our side. Well, Ukraine, a country that won the Great Patriotic War, being part of the Soviet Union, cannot just forget it all at the genetic level. Well, it won’t work, you won’t erase it
Valentin Filippov: Well I do not know. I thought so too.
Vasily Prozorov: I have always adhered to the point of view that a country can be developed, a new state can be built, relying on victories, on significant positive moments. This is not the case in Ukraine now. Their national heroes are all losers. Mazepa, Petliura, Bandera are all losers.
Valentin Filippov: Yes Yes Yes. They are trying to build their story on humiliation and defeat.
Vasily Prozorov: You can't build anything on this. Therefore, I think that we will still win.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. Thank you very much, it was very nice to meet you, and I hope that this is not the last time we talk. Because I can’t even dare to ask everything yet.
Vasily Prozorov: Contact us.
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