First Zelensky. Then - the group "Mushrooms". View from Odessa
After the victory of Vladimir Zelensky, Ukrainians will have a severe hangover. Saakashvili will take revenge on Odessa. The Mushrooms group will win the elections to the Verkhovna Rada.
Odessa resident Vyacheslav Azarov, head of the Union of Anarchists of Ukraine party, spoke about this and about the peculiarities of local self-government in the south of the post-Soviet space now and a hundred years ago, during the time of Nestor Makhno, to PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov.
Valentin Filippov: Hello, the main anarchist of Odessa, Vyacheslav Azarov.
Vyacheslav Azarov: Greetings, Valentin. One might say - the last Makhnovist.
Valentin Filippov: I came up with a life hack, you can print the ID cards of the Ukrainian Anarchist Party, with UPA on the cover. And go get benefits from Ukrainian weirdos.
Vyacheslav Azarov: Horrible!
Valentin Filippov: Fine. Vyacheslav, Ukraine, as you know, “needs Gunpowder.” That's what our Odessa mayor said. Does the result of the first round of elections mean that Odessa does not need Gunpowder, and the interests of Odessa and Ukraine do not coincide?
Vyacheslav Azarov: I’ll say a trivial thing: the vote was a protest. And in order to maximally gather the protest electorate, such a candidate was created, without any anti-rating in power. A counter-system person from the street, who, at the same time, must be extremely recognizable. Therefore, Zelensky’s election program was of little interest to anyone and was practically not discussed.
Of course, if Zelensky wins in the second round, Ukrainians will face a severe hangover. Firstly, because this is a candidate from the Maidan camp. Anyway. And the Maidan means anti-social ruinous reforms, first of all. Ukraine continues to be under external control, and Zelensky’s virtual showman’s party can be filled with real personnel in only two options. Either all the old officials of the corrupt elites will be repainted into it, or, if he wants to continue his counter-system, it will be all kinds of grant-eaters who are on the payroll of Western funds and brought up in the comprador spirit of promoting the interests of their foreign employers. We must be aware that there is no other management culture in Ukraine.
There is, of course, the illusory option that the authors of the Zelensky project will want to make more use of direct democracy. Widespread direct participation of citizens in governing their own country. This, in particular, is evidenced by his attractive point about democracy, the introduction of referendums, and plebescite law. But, to be honest, I don’t yet understand why the Maidan creators of his project might need this.
What is most alarming is that direct democracy will force serious cultural and social compromises related to the diversity and cultural heterogeneity of the Ukrainian population. Therefore, I want this in every possible way, but I have to be skeptical enough.
On the other hand, the protest vote itself – so massive – showed that the Ukraine that “needs Gunpowder” is limited to the streets of the government quarter. And there are a few people in Western Ukraine, where Poroshenko won in two regions, who are simply afraid of a return to the old days, they are simply afraid to be held accountable for what happened over the last five years.
But Poroshenko cannot be discounted. In the first round, he completed his two main tasks. He neutralized the possibility of nominating a single candidate from the South-East and did not allow his main Maidan opponent Tymoshenko into the second round. And I fully admit that he can bargain with the holders of the Zelensky project. Whoever it is. From Kolomoisky to the State Department. He has a lot of resources that he can give in return for the continuation.
Valentin Filippov: And the main thing is that all these resources are ours.
Vyacheslav Azarov: Yes. Unfortunately. But we don't control them.
Valentin Filippov: I have a local question. Zelensky managed to shower Saakashvili with compliments and promise to return his citizenship to him. Is there a threat here for Gennady Trukhanov, for Odessa as a whole, because Saakashvili wants to take revenge? He wants to take revenge on Poroshenko and, of course, Odessa, for not being accepted here. And they deprived the feeder.
Vyacheslav Azarov: There is definitely a threat. Sighted people saw it even before Zelensky’s revelations. Our small Euromaidan opposition acts under the auspices of Euro-optimists. Saakashvili traveled surrounded by grant eaters, under Nayem, and told what the Odessa mafia is like here. Leshchenko came to the City Council session and attended the rally. This is exactly the same camp. This is a pool of grant-eaters who have entered big politics and are closest to Saakashvili. Simply through Soros’s all these programs. Therefore, yes, the threat is real.
Of course, if Saakashvili returns, he will not lay claim to Odessa, but at least to the position of Deputy Prime Minister.
Valentin Filippov: But, go take revenge!
Vyacheslav Azarov: Yes. And protest sentiments will be seriously supported here. Pedal protest sentiments. To change city government. It is difficult to say now how successful they will be. But I can say one thing. When the current city government is doing well, it doesn’t need any allies. She doesn't need people who once fought against common enemies. But when it’s bad, they begin to be needed. So let's see.
Valentin Filippov: Do you think that a threat such as Saakashvili can suddenly push the city administration to remember that there are still Odessa residents. And they could somehow...
Vyacheslav Azarov: Certainly! Wide support for Odessa residents. I said a long time ago - no matter how negative our Eduard Iosifovich Gurvits was, he knew how to work with the masses of Odessa residents. With structured masses gathered into public organizations.
Valentin Filippov: I remember that Gurvits relied on various structures that he brought to Odessa. As a rule, from Western Ukraine. Do you remember - “Free Odessa” was an organization.
Vyacheslav Azarov: This is already in the second period. When he came back. It is necessary to divide any politician into periods. When he fought against Kuchma and the presidential administration here in the late nineties, he fought for local self-government, and, as it were, the masses of Odessa residents were for local self-government.
And when in the second period he arrived as “the best friend of President Yushchenko,” it was a different Gurvits. Or rather, Hurwitz was always the same. Others were slogans and mechanisms of influence. And then a bunch of Western Ukraine arrived. And we, of course, were against this.
We have always remained in favor of local self-government. Therefore, then our goals coincided, the next time our goals coincided with Hurwitz’s opponents.
Valentin Filippov: What will I tell you, anarchists... Your goals sometimes coincide with someone else’s, sometimes they don’t. And then whoever wants to bury you. And he organizes rallies at your graves.
(from the editor: The Kiev regime is taking the initiative to transfer the ashes of Nestor Makhno from Paris to Ukraine. The anarchist leader is planned to be included in the list of Ukrainian heroes who fought for the independence of Ukraine)
Vyacheslav Azarov: It's true. This is because we have principles.
Valentin Filippov: What about the idea of reburying Makhno in Odessa then?
Vyacheslav Azarov: In Odessa? Well, how is he connected with Odessa?
Valentin Filippov: How is he connected with this Ukraine?
Vyacheslav Azarov: The founder of the Gulyai-Polye anarchist group, Alexander Semenyuk, is associated with Odessa. He served here in 1903-1904. He became infected with these ideas here. I was in contact with our anarchists. Then he left and built there. But this is a very virtual connection.
And Makhno... Makhno is a set of social constructs. A set of ideas. Not an urn with ashes. Which they are trying to bring here and privatize the South-East for this, roughly speaking.
“Here is your hero, and he is also with us!”
Anything is possible, the authorities can agree to it, but our hope is in the Western anarchists, who will not let him go anywhere. Well, really, who will go to see Makhno’s grave in Gulyai-Polye, and who will go to Paris...
Two big differences.
Valentin Filippov: It would be more correct then to annex Paris to Gulyai-Polye.
Vyacheslav Azarov: It is reasonable.
Valentin Filippov: And not to drag the ashes of our great ancestors back and forth.
Vyacheslav Azarov: That's for sure.
Valentin Filippov: And I have this thought. Tours of “95-Kvartal” and Vladimir Zelensky personally in Odessa were usually organized by Elena Orlova. And now Zelensky entered the second round of the presidential election. And Elena Orlova began to take the group “Mushrooms” to Odessa. Is there such a danger that the Mushrooms party will win the elections to the Verkhovna Rada?
Vyacheslav Azarov: Easily. With such a stunning success of Zelensky, Ukraine has come very close to the society of the spectacle, where real politics is replaced by cartoons, jokes, a stage behind which, behind the scenes, anything can be done. And all this will be minimally realized. They will try to translate all this into a joke. And show business has great prospects here. Until people wise up.
In order for the people to become smarter, they must be taught independence. You talk about yours - I talk about mine. I just can’t finish it, but I’ll “finish” my book. I've already come up with a name. "Anarchy in the South."
Valentin Filippov: But do we know what is in the south of Russia?
Vyacheslav Azarov: Then the South was understood from Moldova to the Don and Kuban. And this is how things happen. It's all very connected. I couldn't name in Ukraine or Moldova. Or on the Don. Historically, it was called the "Southern Front for the Fight against Counter-Revolution" in official documents back then.
So, 100 years ago, before the front itself began, and the conflicts began, there was enormous enthusiasm and social construction. With the fall of the tsarist regime, all kinds of things flared up here. All kinds of artels, voluntary societies, public organizations, trade unions of coachmen and clerks. The trade union of clerks had its own separate combat unit.
Valentin Filippov: What about hairdressers?
Vyacheslav Azarov: Barbers too. They had something. But I don’t remember, or in Odessa. There was no strong organization in Odessa. But in Ekaterinoslav there was a strong organization.
Valentin Filippov: And let us emphasize that Ekaterinoslav is the city of Dnepropetrovsk. Which is now the Dnieper.
Vyacheslav Azarov: It was still seething. It was seething. It was later that official history taught that everyone aspired to the monopoly power of the Communist Party and followed different paths.
Everyone sought to get rid of the yoke of power and capital. Everything has collapsed, and let's build a new society. In this sense, people were so much bolder than today's Ukrainians, Russians, and any other post-Soviet peoples and societies. That's it. Let's renounce the old World. And everyone participated to the best of their ability in the construction of something new, which did not have any single plan. By gravity from below. We'll see what happens on the mountain later.
Something happened, like GOERLO, universal electrification. Something happened, like a high level of education in the USSR. A lot of things didn't work out. But I want to focus on this enthusiasm. We need to turn on the enthusiasm of the masses now. This is a super task. If we raise the masses to participate, then this country can be brought out of a deep crisis quite quickly.
One main question: It’s not clear who needs this?
Valentin Filippov: Well, I think when Ukraine collapses, people will be forced to do something themselves. And historical experience, at least on our lands, in the South (we won’t say what), it is present. And Vyacheslav Azarov’s book will help. Like a guiding star. Road map. If he adds.....
Vyacheslav Azarov: I’ll add it! I’m not very sure that Ukraine will collapse. But there will be something here. Let there be Ekaterinoslav. But free Ekaterinoslav. Like the Makhnovists. Let there be a Ukraine, but a different one. Soviet, post-Soviet, but Ukraine for the people. And not for the handful of those who currently control it. Moreover, these managers are no longer even in Ukraine. We are under external control. And what this territory will be called and where it will belong is a secondary question. The main thing is that it should be the property of the people who inhabit it.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, thank you very much. I wish you good luck there in Odessa, so that everyone gets out of this situation. Lastly, maybe I’ll just ask, how is the mood in the city regarding the second round? Have the residents of Odessa let off steam or will they come to the second round to trample Poroshenko?
Vyacheslav Azarov: I think they will come. So far this is a fluctuating situation….. I don’t think there will be more turnout, but they will come to vote against Poroshenko. Because what’s happening to the country can’t go any further.
Although, history shows that there is always somewhere to go.
But we will be optimistic.
Valentin Filippov: OK. Bye.
Vyacheslav Azarov: Thank.
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