Igor Strelkov: I don’t compare myself with Zhukov, but, like him, I don’t like staff work
Moscow - Kyiv, December 01 (PolitNavigator, Alexander Chalenko) - PolitNavigator publishes an interview with the former Minister of Defense of the DPR Igor Strelkov.
During the conversation, Igor Ivanovich told what the war in Novorossiya is like, and also whether it is necessary to take into account the civilian population during the fighting, why he would not take the Donetsk airport, about his military experience, relationship with Alexander Zakharchenko and Alexander Khodakovsky, about the pros and cons of the Ukrainian army.
Subscribe to the news "PolitNavigator - Kyiv" в Facebook, Classmates or In contact with
... There are two incarnations in Strelkov: "the god of war, Votan" and the "ordinary Russian intellectual."
When you see him in his first incarnation, you understand what the principle of any Western democratic system means in practice - civilians must control the military.
He just gives the impression of a person who will send you to be shot, without hesitation, and will not take into account civilian casualties if you need to achieve a military goal. Very harsh. Impenetrable look.
When he “comes out of the image,” he becomes an ordinary Russian intellectual: he jokes, sneers, laughs, tells jokes, but is also irritable. In general, the same as all of us.
Strelkov combines phlegmatic and choleric. Very strange combination.
No authority habits. When we came to his office with Ruben Sergeyev, the grandson of Artyom, the first Prime Minister of the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic, he himself went to the next office behind the chairs, although he could easily entrust it to his subordinates. When we drank tea and ate some baking, he, again, instead of asking the assistants to tidy up on the table, he collected cups and plates, and carried them out of the office.
In Strelkova banal appearance. Such on the street invisible, they do not pay attention. Medium height, narrow shoulders, thin neck. The clothes are ascetic and simple. No design frills. Dressed in some kind of "Soviet-style" suit. Thin tie.
Well educated. He speaks well. Clear wording. Gives good and informative interviews. Frank. It is a pity that while editing this interview with his press service, very interesting fragments disappeared, but, nevertheless, in an edited form, our conversation turned out to be interesting.
Alexander Chalenko: As far as I know, in Novorossiya the steppe and thermal imagers made fighting with small arms impossible. Because of this, it is impossible for the warring parties to come close to each other. Therefore, this war is a war of artillery. What do you think about this?
Igor Strelkov: Outside the urban agglomerations, of which there are a lot in the Donetsk Republic, the terrain is very rugged: a large number of ravines, heights, copses, lowlands, overgrown with bushes. There are a lot of mines and waste heaps that make the place closed.
Now there is a positional war, where there are almost no armed clashes with small arms, there is a war of artillery.
Alexander Chalenko: I was told that this war is in the urban agglomeration, because in the center of Donbass, leaving one city, you almost immediately find yourself in another. At the same time, civilians live there...
Igor Strelkov: ...understand, war is war. And in this war it is necessary to achieve victory. Anyone who will adjust in advance to the interests of the civilian population to the detriment of military interests will not be able to win. Unfortunately it is so.
The population has suffered and will continue to suffer as long as the war continues. The sooner the war ends, the sooner the suffering of the civilian population will end.
For the rest, the tactics of small groups.
Alexander Chalenko: What is this? Please explain.
Igor Strelkov: You see, in military history, in military theory, there is the concept of a basic tactical unit that must perform certain tactical tasks. The more military affairs develop, the more military equipment improves, the firepower of units grows, the smaller tactical units become.
Relatively speaking, if the same tasks during the First World War could be solved by a battalion with its firepower, the same tasks could be solved by companies during World War II. Now the same tasks can be solved by platoons.
In this case, the number of weapons and their quality, for example, rate of fire, have become such that the density of fire that a modern platoon can create exceeds the density that a battalion during the First World War could create. Or at least match him.
Accordingly, large masses of people only become big targets, which was actually demonstrated near Slavyansk, near Donetsk, where units of the Ukrainian army, which were much superior to us in numbers and technical equipment, could not really do anything with us and only suffered heavy losses. Due to their crowding, due to the fact that they moved in large masses, large masses of equipment, and we used it. They used small group tactics - a unit of up to a platoon or less. They groped for the enemy, pinned him down and called fire from our artillery and mortars on him. Due to this, the enemy suffered very heavy losses despite our relatively small losses.
And at the same time, the smaller the unit, the harder it is to hit it, especially in urban areas. The enemy had a huge advantage over us in technology. But he could not realize this superiority, because it turned out to be shooting sparrows from a cannon. It is useless to use a Grad division against a dispersed infantry squad. It might hurt someone, but the efficiency will be extremely low.
Alexander Chalenko: Now they can’t take over the airport in Donetsk. What is the problem? Why are the battles taking so long? What would Igor Strelkov do to take complete control of the Donetsk airport?
Igor Strelkov: I would not storm it at all.
Alexander Chalenko: Why?
Igor Strelkov: But why?
Alexander Chalenko: Because it was believed that before the militias began to take control of it, artillery fire was fired at Donetsk from the territory of the airport, as well as from the settlements of Peski and Avdievka.
Igor Strelkov: Well, can you imagine the map? when you manipulate names such as Avdeevka, Peski, airport, you cannot imagine the connection. Avdeevka is a fairly large city with a population of fifty thousand. Sands is also a fairly large settlement. This is an urban-type settlement adjacent to the city. The airport is located at a fairly large distance between them. This is not just one agglomeration.
I repeat, artillery cannot be located simultaneously at the airport, Peski and Avdeevka. Either she is there or there.
Alexander Chalenko: Was there artillery at the airport?
Igor Strelkov: There were spotters there. And the artillery was really in the area of Pesok and Avdeevka. So, in order to take the airport, it was only necessary to completely destroy this artillery. The object for attack was chosen on a formal basis by people who do not understand anything at all in the art of war; here there was a struggle not with the cause, but with the effect. In order to take the airport, it was necessary to eliminate the cause, first destroy the artillery positions in Piski and Avdeevka. Then the airport could be taken without any difficulty.
And so we have a situation where all infantry attacks on the airport are repelled by artillery, which is out of range.
Alexander Chalenko: Okay, why is this not clear to those involved in planning these operations?
Igor Strelkov: Let's say that in terms of the level of military knowledge and planning of operations, these people are not much different from you.
Alexander Chalenko: And Motorola?
Igor Strelkov: Motorola is a good fighter. An excellent commander at the pre-platoon level. Whatever task is given to him, he performs such a task. In this case, we are dealing with a strategic decision, with those who threw Motorola and Givi at the airport, the capture of which was identified as the main task. I don’t know who determined this. I was away at the time. It was immediately clear to me that this was an unusable object. The attack on the airport is not only unnecessary, it is also harmful, since as a result of it the best units of the former Slavic Brigade were battered and suffered serious losses. Moreover, without any meaning.
You understand, as soon as they launch an attack, so the enemy causes artillery fire.
Alexander Chalenko: Do I understand correctly that this problem can be solved?
Igor Strelkov: Yes, this task is solved, but not by infantry units. It was necessary to act with the support of armored vehicles. But since Zakharchenko took all the armored vehicles from the Slavic brigade to the Oplot, he ordered it.
Alexander Chalenko: Many of your critics say that Strelkov is just an FSB lieutenant colonel, so he has no experience in planning army operations. What is your answer to this?
Igor Strelkov: I really am an FSB colonel, so I take it calmly, but in general I don’t advise you to name a military man a lower rank than he is. For a military man, ranks have more value than for civilians. Actually, the military hierarchy is built on this.
Of course, it was difficult for me to lead divisions and units when the army grew, when there were several thousand people in it, and the front already stretched over tens of thousands of kilometers. Naturally, we could not create a continuous front with such small forces.
Alexander Chalenko: Do you have army experience in leading such units?
Igor Strelkov: I don’t have such experience, I had experience as a commander of small units, but I had to plan special operations with a number of participants of 80-100 people. I was an operative in the fight against terrorism in Chechnya. I had to participate in many operations, but not directly supervise. The most I've ever commanded was a combined task force of 150 people for a couple of months in 2005.
And again, the completed units were not subordinate to me in a military sense, but only in an operational sense. I only set tasks for them, which they themselves planned and carried out. Now, I often did not quite understand how to organize this or that operation, but I clearly understood what I wanted to achieve in this operation.
That is, I set goals and tasks that were accomplished, and they were carried out. And thanks to this, it was possible to almost thwart all the plans of the enemy, which were aimed at our environment, defeat and destruction.
I really missed a chief of staff who could describe what I wanted. Strictly speaking, all high-level army commanders are divided into two categories: chiefs and chiefs of staff. The commander makes a decision, and the chief of staff develops it, that is, writes it out, lays it out. The work of both is absolutely necessary. It is not always the case that a good chief of staff can command troops well. And vice versa. For example, in one of his characteristics they said about Zhukov that he was an excellent combat commander, but could not stand staff work. Of course, I don’t compare myself with Zhukov, but, to be honest, I also don’t like staff work. Moreover, I don’t know how to do it. But I understand well the essence of volunteer, partisan struggle. I knew the quality of all my units, what they could and could not do.
Our army at that time was partisan. In many ways, it still remains so. This is not a regular army.
Alexander Chalenko: What are their differences?
Igor Strelkov: On the one hand, they are much more proactive than a conventional army. On the other hand, they have weaker discipline. They solve problems that the regular army finds difficult to solve. For example, quickly move, maneuver, operate on the ground without convoys and supplies. These are the positive qualities of the partisan army.
But on the other hand, they don’t like to sit in the trenches, they don’t like to sit on the defensive, meaning in bad conditions. It is difficult for them to be led by someone they do not trust.
Now that the construction of the regular armies of the Donetsk and Lugansk republics is underway, in my opinion, a serious mistake is being made. When already established units are disbanded, they are transferred from one to another. By this they hope to achieve discipline and obedience to persons who are formally appointed. But the army remained volunteer in its essence. There are no mobilized people there. And ordering without taking into account these specifics, without taking into account already established traditions, causes serious damage, because people are deprived of motivation. They don't trust their commanders, those they don't know.
Alexander Chalenko: When I was recently in Donetsk, I talked there with soldiers from your Slavic brigade. I asked them who Igor Strelkov is to you. They answered me that he is our father. They are waiting for your return. But I learned from other fighters that two hundred people from your brigade, after arriving in Donetsk, transferred from you to the “Vostok” brigade. They seemed to be from Kramatorsk. Why did they leave you?
Igor Strelkov: You know, this is a classic case of a journalist using information from the OBS agency. "One woman said."
Alexander Chalenko: So, there was no such case?
Igor Strelkov: Two hundred people did not leave me. One mortar battery transferred to Vostok during the crisis near Shakhtarsk. Then the mortars were given to us, and the soldiers remained in “Vostok”, they were sent to Shakhtersk to support the “Tsar” battalion (call sign of one of the commanders of the Slavic Brigade, who became Minister of Defense after Strelkov’s resignation - approx. auto), who at that time was fighting in Shakhtersk.
For some reason they became convinced that we were leaving Donetsk. They heard that Khodakovsky vowed to defend Donetsk to the last drop of blood. They decided they were going over to him because he definitely wouldn't back down.
Alexander Chalenko: They were local.
Igor Strelkov: Well, yes, and our 90% team was local. In general, this is a concrete example of what rumors are.
The units left Kramatorsk on the instructions of their commanders, thinking that they were carrying out my order, and part of the commandant’s company left for Izvarino and was already holding a corridor there. Accordingly, I thought that they were all deserters. Then I found out that they, it turns out, were misled by their commanders, who then all ended up on Russian territory. This…
Alexander Chalenko: Babai?
Igor Strelkov: Babai. Here is this anecdotal character to a large extent. But these are the features of the guerrilla war: constant rebellions and riots ...
Alexander Chalenko: Why didn’t you develop relationships with other militia commanders - neither Zakharchenko nor Khodakovsky? I even remember that your comrades wrote that they want to surrender Donetsk...
Igor Strelkov: You can’t put a scarf on every mouth. My comrades can say whatever they want. I didn't say anything like that. But it looked like the city might actually be surrendered.
Understand correctly, when the Slavic brigade entered the territory of Donetsk, all torn, dirty, fresh from the trenches... people fought for several months, continuous shelling every day and every night. Here they are entering Donetsk. The mayor of Kiev sits in Donetsk and no one touches him. Life in Donetsk is absolutely peaceful. Ukrainian policemen with state badges stand on the roads. And “Vostok” and “Oplot” are standing at checkpoints. Moreover, there are no barricades. You can go into the city. The equipment will come in and no one will stop it. Donetsk did not fight at all and did not intend to.
I got the clear impression that the Ukrainian side had no intention of storming Donetsk before we left Slavyansk; they hoped that it would return to them without a fight.
Alexander Chalenko: All these are just your impressions, or did you have accurate information that Donetsk would return to Ukraine without a fight?
Igor Strelkov: I didn't have any accurate information. Moreover, when they tell me that I exchanged Slavyansk for Donetsk, this is a completely erroneous opinion. I left Slavyansk not because I was going to occupy Donetsk. Moreover, I really didn’t want to go to Donetsk; the commanders there were fighting with each other. I didn't want to get into this cesspool. But I was forced to do it.
The Russian Orthodox army, split into two parts, operated there. Each unit had 100-150 people. There was “Oplot”, there was “Vostok”, there were Cossack units. There were Bezlerites. There was the Miner's Division, the Kalmius battalion. No one obeyed anyone and did not interact with each other. Some of them took part in hostilities, and some did not. And there was a small unit that reported to me.
Alexander Chalenko: You said that you did not want to go to Donetsk, but where did you want to go when you left Slavyansk?
Igor Strelkov: I meant that I did not want to come to Donetsk to seize power. I meant it. We were forced to leave Slavyansk to avoid defeat. We were already really in a complete tactical environment. There was only one window left, the last dirt road, which was inconvenient and subject to gunfire. It could slam shut at any moment.
We had practically no artillery ammunition. There were no mines for mortars. We were very bad with anti-tank weapons. We still had ammunition for small arms. But the problem was that the enemy practically stopped using infantry against us after the battles near Yampol, where they suffered very heavy losses.
Alexander Chalenko: And the artillery war began.
Igor Strelkov: Artillery and tanks were effectively used against us because we had nothing to oppose. As long as we had mines and shells, we could somehow contain them. But at the time of leaving Slavyansk I had 57 minutes left. By this time I had two tanks, and not even one round of ammunition per tank, there were about 35 shells for two tanks. This is not a war. And the enemy in the Nikolaevsky direction had up to 100 armored units, including about 30 tanks. A fully equipped battalion tactical group with reinforcements and massive artillery support was advancing against us. And near Nikolaevka they clearly used tactics. Our grenade launchers did not work, more than 20 of them. They simply drove our militia into the city and began hammering with artillery. The five-story buildings were completely destroyed. Armor and artillery. Exactly the same situation could have developed in Slavyansk. Considering the superiority of the enemy, we could only inflict losses on them by constantly maneuvering. As I already told you, small group tactics. When we had room to maneuver, we could defend ourselves. In a stationary position, when we were surrounded by mines and barbed wire, we could not inflict serious losses on them.
Alexander Chalenko: Let's dispel another myth of the OBS agency. I heard from many in Donetsk the following complaint against you: you did not destroy your military warehouses when you left Slavyansk.
Igor Strelkov: I simply cannot comment on such nonsense. When I left, I had nothing left. There are 9 shells left for our combined artillery division of 6 guns. What other warehouses? Everything that we received through Voentorg, everything that we managed to get from some other sources, I immediately went into battle.
Khodakovsky and Zakharchenko had warehouses. We periodically begged them for something for our artillery and our tanks.
Alexander Chalenko: Did they give it to you?
Igor Strelkov: They did. Not to me, but to the commanders who received it through personal connections. At first, Zakharchenko obeyed me, until he was appointed prime minister. But Khodakovsky did not obey. He categorically did not obey. He simply did not make any contact. And since I had other tasks than to pacify disobedient commanders... he sits and sits, defends his sector and defends. And, God grant, that they continue to defend.
Alexander Chalenko: What are the pros and cons of the Ukrainian army?
Igor Strelkov: Stable in defense. These are the same Russian soldiers. They consider themselves ancient Ukrainians, Ukrainians, or something like that. Essentially, these are Russian people. They are unpretentious, ready for hardships. In general, all the qualities of a Russian soldier. I don’t see any other strengths in the Ukrainian army.
Everything else is a consequence of 23 years of collapse, the same as ours, multiplied by their mentality. Their bosses... beyond any criticism. The average officer corps is more or less.
Alexander Chalenko: It is believed that private military companies fought against you in Slavyansk. Was it or wasn't it?
Igor Strelkov: I can’t say that they fought...
Alexander Chalenko: But they were there?
Igor Strelkov: They were there.
Alexander Chalenko: Which ones? Polish? American?
Igor Strelkov: They said they were Poles. But they said that it was not only the Poles. Again, when there are no corpses with documents directly, then we can talk about this very roughly. Why do I say that Chevekashniks were sitting on Karachun, because there was a message from residents from Andreevka, from the nearest village, where they went down to the local store. Residents said that they were Poles. But they only carried out surveillance and security services. They served the same thermal imagers, guarded the ATO headquarters and the headquarters of the units that acted against us in Slavyansk. But directly, on the first line, they were or were not... in order for this to be possible to prove, it was necessary to win a serious military victory, capturing enemy territory.
Alexander Chalenko: Why did so few local people sign up for your brigade?
Igor Strelkov: The volunteers were given neither machine guns, nor boots, nor uniforms; I had nothing to arm the people with. But there are always few volunteers. Just look at the example of the last Civil War. There were very few of them on both sides. Whoever managed to mobilize more effectively won. Why did the Reds win? Because at the right moment they had more resources, which made it possible to carry out mass mobilization. Yes, these were extremely unstable troops who regularly surrendered, and were replaced by new ones, new ones, and new ones. The Soviet government got all the main warehouses of the Russian Empire, and got the main stocks of weapons. The main factories were located on the territory they controlled. And most importantly, the apparatus of the former tsarist army passed into the hands of the Reds. Military experts and all institutions.
The picture is the same in Donbass as everywhere else. If, God forbid, a war breaks out in Russia, the same thing will happen. Most people don't want to fight. And it is right. If everyone wants to fight, then what will we get? It's kind of creepy. This will never happen, thank God.
But if one day you will receive a summons, and you appear in the draft board, you want to fight or not. You will have an alternative: either ten years in prison, or, please, forward to the war. As a matter of fact, the Ukrainian army is now mobilized. There, too, no one wants to fight, but they are mobilized and sent to war.
If I had a sufficient number of weapons and specialists in Donetsk, I would mobilize. The first thing the Minister of Defense should do is mobilize. And I had no resources at all. That’s why we had to recruit only volunteers, but we couldn’t arm the volunteers either. When I left Donetsk, I still had 150 unarmed people, although by that time there was an army of thousands. As far as I know, 27 or 28 thousand people signed up in May. They were ready to join the militia. But there was nothing to arm them with.
They had to appoint a commander, but the commanders did not come. Most of the reserve officers, including the Soviet, evaded.
Like in Russia in 1991, they surrendered their own power. Almost no one spoke up.
Alexander Chalenko: Sorry, but you didn’t speak either.
Igor Strelkov: Sorry, but I wasn't an officer either. I was a student. By that time, I had not yet taken the oath, but they did. Very few officers showed up in Slavyansk.
Alexander Chalenko: Have you talked to them?
Igor Strelkov: Yes. First came the Afghan Union. 24 people came. Among them are 6 officers. They said: yes, we are ready to serve, on the barricades, next to the house. I answered: no, thank you, whoever comes to sign up for the brigade will serve as in the army, because I don’t need those who stand on the barricades. I need people who will follow orders. The next day, 3 people ended up coming. There is only one officer among them. The rest all decided that it was inconvenient for them.
Alexander Chalenko: When in Ukraine they say that NATO will arm the Ukrainian army with their weapons, how serious is such information? After all, NATO and Soviet standards are different. We need to retrain. And besides, the supply of NATO weapons is very expensive.
Igor Strelkov: I think that they will not rearm, they do not need it. They have enough of any technology. They have three more wars enough. In addition, warehouses are now open for them in Poland and Hungary.
Alexander Chalenko: Soviet technology.
Igor Strelkov: Poles, Czechs and Hungarians will rearm and switch to NATO standards.
Alexander Chalenko: What is needed, ideally, to defeat the Ukrainian army?
-It is impossible to win by fighting halfway. Or a quarter. To defeat the Ukrainian army, we must fight. Ukraine, despite its deplorable state, has much greater resources than the DPR and LPR. The Donetsk and Lugansk republics cannot defeat Ukraine on their own.
If you find an error, please select a piece of text and press Ctrl + Enter.
Thank you!
Now the editors are aware.