Ukraine should become Donbass

The secret last point of the Minsk agreements for Kyiv is “Shoot yourself.” Donbass will not grant amnesty to “ATO participants.” Who and how to treat Ukraine. Kyiv is using the methods of ISIS and al-Nusra and is holding 30 million civilians hostage. An “all for all” exchange cannot take place because the Ukrainian side is killing prisoners.

About the difficult path of cleansing Ukraine, about the role of Donbass and Russia in this cleansing, to a PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov said political scientist, adviser to the head of the DPR Alexander Kazakov.

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Valentin Filippov: Is it true that customs duties were introduced on December 1 for Donbass enterprises in Russia?                         

Alexander Kazakov: Oh, I've heard this for the twentieth time. But I have not seen a single official confirmation.

Valentin Filippov: So it wasn't like that? Have any Donbass enterprises approached their management with the fact that Russia is stopping trucks with products?                         

Alexander Kazakov: No. In general, the situation at the border, including the fact that, as far as customs is concerned, it is very fluid and related to a specific moment; I cannot confirm that any duties have been introduced. Especially from Russia.

Valentin Filippov: Fine. OK. Alexander, hello!                         

Alexander Kazakov: Good afternoon!

Valentin Filippov: Alexander, now everyone is saying that we need to somehow distance ourselves from Ukraine. Everyone says: “Let them digest it themselves, let them come to their senses, let them understand.” That's what they say in the Russian Federation. This is what they sometimes say even in Donbass, emphasizing that the regions must be taken away. The West has stopped giving money. At the same time, there are Russian borders around Ukraine on three sides. Even from four, if you count Transnistria. There are no natural barriers. After all, it is an ulcer on our body.

Alexander Kazakov: Yes, and there are no borders, essentially.

Valentin Filippov: Who will bear this misfortune that is happening? This poverty, rampant crime. Who will have to deal with all this?                        

Alexander Kazakov: Well, how about who? To whom it directly concerns. The United States will not be affected. Europeans - yes. Whatever the outcome. And the burden of rectifying the situation and saving, by and large, I emphasize, the Ukrainian people will fall on the brothers. How else?

In your question, that “let her figure it out on her own,” here we need to separate the emotional and rational approaches. Emotionally, yes. Everyone wants to close the curtain and not see it all, because they are tired. People are emotionally tired over these almost three years. Three years of this madness on the other side. Emotionally understandable. But there must be a certain part of people who approach this issue rationally. This applies to statesmen, politicians, and military personnel. And in this regard, I have already made such a comparison: if something incomprehensible is decomposing on the landing in a neighboring apartment, then you can say as much as you like that this does not concern you, but you live nearby and breathe it. And then, in the end, you can become infected with cadaveric poison.

Valentin Filippov: It's possible, it's possible.                         

Alexander Kazakov: It sounds pretty harsh, maybe, but it's true. Well, how to isolate yourself from this? This is comparable to environmental problems. The wind blows, it doesn't know where the border is. If the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant goes down, the atomic cloud doesn’t care where the DPR is, the border of the Russian Federation; by the way, it will follow the wind rose to the northeast. With everything that flows there already, to Voronezh. Also politics is a kind of environmental problem. That is, the politics that is filled with miasma, it poisons everything around.

If it’s as favorable as possible, Trump, busy with other problems, says: “I actually don’t know where this Ukraine is”….

Valentin Filippov:  I think this will most likely happen.                        

Alexander Kazakov: He’ll remember how he was thrown. Thanks to Shariy, I dug up this story. Already Chairman of the State Department. And he will say: “Well, who can I pass the wand to?” Well, it’s clear that Germany. Germany will say: “Yes, okay! We have elections here in the fall. We have no time for that at all.” France? But, in general, here they are, elections.

In fact, there is no one to take the wand. As a result, either look for some new formats, but it is impossible to move away from “Minsk”, this is a Security Council resolution. It turns out that no one on the other side wants to do this.

Valentin Filippov: Logical.                         

Alexander Kazakov: And then it’s logical to say to Russia: “Well, let’s figure it out somehow, and then we’ll see what happens.” With this scenario, the political reformatting of Ukraine will begin, but with an unpredictable result.

There is not a single political force there that you can rely on.

Valentin Filippov: It always has been.                         

Alexander Kazakov: At least there were, relatively speaking, more sensible people there. Let's take the same former Party of Regions. Or the former Communist Party of Ukraine. At least that's it. But they simply don’t exist. No matter who you look at in Kyiv, it’s either an ultra-Nazi or just a neo-Nazi. The choice is such that not one person, not two, not three will help. There is really no one to rely on. Hold elections now? Who will conduct them? Who will count? Who will make sure that polling stations are not blown up? It's going to be absolute hell there. Therefore, under the most favorable set of circumstances, if our Western enemy disappears, let’s say, for a while, then it is also completely unclear there. And at the same time, returning to the beginning of the question, they will say to Russia: “Let’s do it ourselves somehow.”

And then, it seems to me, the only place where you can find at least a human resource is Donbass.

Valentin Filippov: But, unfortunately, there is not much population in Donbass. You know, there was a very old joke when Yanukovych came to power: “In Donbass it is impossible for a man to go out into the street. He is immediately grabbed and taken to some region by the governor.

I think that then there will be the largest wave of refugees from Donbass, because, well, how long can you rule this country?                       

Alexander Kazakov: Well, in any case, the human resource that has been developed in Donbass over two years and which, despite all the difficulties and contradictions, has shown its effectiveness, I can speak for Donetsk, there is a state here. Despite the fact that the entire previous state fled like cockroaches. It's really starting from scratch here. Then the personnel resource must be drawn from here. You know, there is such a slogan, when Bandera’s supporters say that Donbass should become Ukraine, they are often answered here that Ukraine should become Donbass. And that's only half the joke.

Because under current circumstances, if you look at how people live here, life is difficult, but healthy. And how people live there. She is also difficult, but she is also not healthy, not to say sick. Then, Ukraine should become Donbass, there is a certain vector in this. And most importantly, this is a vector of development.

We will never be able to get rid of Ukraine. Neither Russia, nor Donbass, nor Belarus. You can say as much as you want that they are not brothers. What they betrayed. Oh, Lord, we have Bulgarians who betray us as many times as we saved them.

Valentin Filippov: I just understand the betrayal of the Bulgarians. They are in a different economic system. They live in a different region. They are simply forced to ally with their neighbors, and not with distant Russia.

Alexander Kazakov: I would not, Valentin, look for rational reasons for betrayal. Let's leave betrayal as betrayal.

Valentin Filippov: Well, maybe it's not betrayal. They're just from there. They are there. And Ukraine is here.                           

Alexander Kazakov: And it’s not going anywhere.

Valentin Filippov: Yes. It doesn't have wheels.                           

Alexander Kazakov: Absolutely right. Therefore, at my recent speech here at the end of the year, I said that the burden of responsibility for the future of Ukraine lies, among other things, on the Donbass, and especially on Russia. Because there is nowhere to go.

Valentin Filippov: I am very skeptical of the media and various sociologists. But in Ukraine there was such a wave, quite similar resources are trying to pass off sociology. And this sociology is very pro-Russian. Then Gonopolsky has 70% of the population saying that they would like to live in the Soviet Union. Now the famous Razumkov Center has produced an interesting sociology, that 40%, at least in the East of Ukraine, in the event of a war with Russia, are ready to surrender immediately, and another 70% want to help Russian troops.

They, however, emphasize that in the West of Ukraine the situation is one, in the East it is different. This does not take into account Donbass and Crimea. That is, when they say “East of Ukraine” they mean Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye...                            

Alexander Kazakov: Novorossiya.

Valentin Filippov: Yes, Novorossiya. And from my point of view, such results appear for a reason.                          

Alexander Kazakov: Certainly.

Valentin Filippov: That is, they are preparing the Ukrainian political nation psychologically for something, that something must change.

But at the same time, I want to say, look, we have 200 thousand “ATO participants.” Who are already accustomed to going to schools and telling heroic stories.                           

Alexander Kazakov: Multiply by families. It's a million.

Valentin Filippov: “My dad beat the separatists.”                         

Alexander Kazakov: “My son was wounded.” It's a million.

Valentin Filippov: Yes. It's a million. By the way, we are waiting for Ukraine to finally give the amnesty agreed upon in Minsk. Is Donbass ready to introduce an amnesty for these two hundred thousand?                        

Alexander Kazakov: Very good question. Simply, thank you, because when there is a conversation about amnesty not in Minsk, but in Donetsk, here it is in exactly this vein. The question is not whether we will be given amnesty. In general, we don’t give a damn. The question is whether we will give amnesty. And the answer, unfortunately, is no.

We also do sociology. Just not on paper, but for yourself. It is not rational to deceive yourself. And despite the fact that the population of Donetsk has quadrupled since the summer of 2014, and we know very well that people don’t really return from Russia, most of our returnees come from Ukraine, while the overwhelming majority of the population demands a trial of war criminals.

Since the overwhelming majority, we can now say, of war crimes committed by both the Ukrainian Armed Forces and punitive battalions are recorded, there are witnesses, there is an evidence base, and people here are more likely to demand a trial. And I agree with this. Looking at it through the eyes of a politician, even. I agree anyway. Because the revival of Ukraine after this terrible disease must go through a period of cleansing. Otherwise, it will again, as it was 50-60 years ago, go under the radar, and someday, under a favorable set of circumstances, it will come out again.

I understand that this makes a political settlement much more difficult. Significantly complicates it. But while in Minsk, Berlin and Paris they are not saying anything about an amnesty on our part, they think that this does not exist.

Valentin Filippov: I understood the amnesty as a mutual amnesty.

Alexander Kazakov: No.

Valentin Filippov: Didn't you promise them amnesty?                         

Alexander Kazakov: In “Minsk” we are talking only about amnesty from Kyiv. What I’m talking about is that this joy still awaits them. Here there is a very important point, which not only I, but also my colleagues have repeatedly spoken about, and Zakharchenko, the head of the DPR, has repeatedly spoken about this. There is some uncertainty in our attitude towards Minsk. Moreover, we do this, most likely consciously. If we carefully read all the Minsk agreements, the “package of measures”, for example, and if we have some image of the future in our heads, we will understand that this is not the end.

Valentin Filippov: Of course!                         

Alexander Kazakov: The “package of measures” does not spell out the future. The “Set of Measures” is generally written about how to stop the war.

Valentin Filippov: Yes.                         

Alexander Kazakov: That is, to resolve the conflict. This is paper with the prefix “not”. “Don’t shoot”, “don’t plant”, and so on. And the image of the future is a positive image of the future. And there is almost nothing about it. Some small sketch in pencil, with a steel pencil at that. Faintly visible. It has its own prosecutor's office, its own local authorities, the people's militia, which the army will be renamed into. Here's something like that, but it's very unclear. And it's in the notes.

And if we honestly ask ourselves the question of this very image of the future, well, good, suddenly, once, we fulfill the Minsk agreements. And we come to the last point. To transfer the border to Ukraine. Here in Donetsk and in Lugansk with neighbors, maybe they will allow Ukrainian border guards to stand on the border literally in no man’s land. But our border guards will be on our side.

Valentin Filippov: It `s naturally.                         

Alexander Kazakov: And the question arises: what next? Well, okay, well, we stopped the war. We pretended that the conflict had been resolved. How will the country really live? In fact, there are already three countries. Ukraine, Donetsk Republic and Lugansk Republic. And we don't talk about this. We don’t say this, most likely deliberately. Because if we start talking about this, we will disrupt the Minsk process.

Valentin Filippov: He still doesn’t go at all.                         

Alexander Kazakov: No. Look. Let's be honest. Yes, Ukraine...

Valentin Filippov:  He doesn’t do anything, doesn’t sign anything in writing, and always turns on the “fool.”                        

Alexander Kazakov: Or let's call it something else. Very technologically disrupts any track where a compromise is planned. She simply rips it off. Every time. This is the political task Ukraine faces. More precisely, this is Poroshenko’s political plan. As long as there is Minsk, there is Poroshenko. In the near future, another version may reach him. What if “Minsk” is disrupted, that is, if active hostilities begin, then this will all the more preserve Poroshenko as president.

If hostilities begin again, the third campaign, when it begins to gain momentum, again the whole World will say: “Dear Mom! We stop and sit down at the negotiating table.” With whom? Again with Poroshenko. Simply by the fact that he is now a person called president. Someone there gave him a mandate. That is, on the contrary, he preserves himself. But now too. Therefore, we must treat Minsk very soberly. And, in fact, it is positive. Firstly, we must understand that this is indeed a historical diplomatic victory for the Russian and Donetsk-Lugansk diplomacy that participated in this. This is a historic victory. Against the backdrop of military upsurge and military success, we forced Kyiv to sign something that it could not fulfill. The last point for Kyiv, today, Bandera’s Kyiv, the last point, the secret protocol to the “set of measures” is the last point, which has not been published. It's called "shoot yourself."

This is what they should have signed. This is not feasible for them. And yet, we nailed it.

Valentin Filippov: Yes, but we do not have any sanctions for non-compliance. What's the point?

Alksandr Kazakov: And that’s not even the only reason. We just know that the points of the Minsk agreement, especially where they reach the political level, are unenforceable. But in this sense, this is a historic victory. Russian and Donbass new diplomacy. Sooner or later, under Poroshenko or his successor, or perhaps when the constitution changes as a result of another coup

Valentin Filippov:  Or with his killer, who will seize his power.

Alexander Kazakov: Yes, after the next coup d'etat. Perhaps there will be a Directory or a parliamentary one, hell, what can happen there, but “Minsk” will not be cancelled. Because there is a UN Security Council resolution. And it can only be fulfilled.

Valentin Filippov: This is all good, but if instead we moved the front line to the Kyiv region, so that there was a front line between Troeshina and Koncha Zaspa. Let there be shelling there.                           

Alexander Kazakov: What about the question price?

Valentin Filippov: I don't know. I'm an optimist. It seemed to me that at the very beginning, if these bastards had run, and they had to run, they were already running, then they could have been pushed far away very quickly.                         

Alexander Kazakov: They even fled from Mariupol. I, of course, have been closely following since the spring of 2014 the formation and victorious march of our armchair troops; they are victorious, of course.

And in all the brilliant strategy and tactics of armchair commanders, there is one significant flaw. They don't look at the situation holistically. By the way, even some commanders, especially former ones, are guilty of this. So they look, there were so many of us, there were so many of them, they had so many tanks, we had so many. But we had fighting spirit, and they didn’t. If yes, then we would have taken Slavyansk back in two hours.

Two plus two equals four and that's it. And an integrated approach, two and two can be four. Or maybe not. Because we must decipher each two. And it will consist of dozens of different parameters. Well, for example. Do all our armchair commanders know that the water tap in Donetsk is located in Slavyansk? That is, it is closed there and Donetsk, already a millionth city again, is left without water.

Valentin Filippov: Right. Therefore, Slavyansk cannot be given away. Because we have a tap there. How did it happen that these goats still had all the taps?                           

Alexander Kazakov: Not all.

Valentin Filippov: But many, in fact. It should have been the other way around. We should have had taps. Maybe we should have landed troops on these cranes all over the country.                         

Alexander Kazakov: Which? Whose landings? Donetsk miners? On airplanes? On plywood?

Valentin Filippov: Taxi drivers.                           

Alexander Kazakov: Taxi drivers? That's it, yes. And straight along the highway to Slavyansk. We must not forget that this war began as a pure guerrilla war. There was no overall strategy. There were no plans of the General Staff, because there was no General Staff. It started the way it started. Chaotic. People got to know each other. People didn’t even know what to call each other. Zakharchenko said that near Kozhevnya, when they were about to die honestly, they began to call each other names. In battle. Knowing that there was almost no chance, they began to tell each other their names. And we have been fighting for several months now. Shoulder to shoulder. They only knew them by their call signs.

We have a guy who died throwing himself under a tank with grenades, saved dozens of wounded people whom that tank just wanted to roll over with its tracks, and no one knows who he is. Because he came to the militia the day before, gave himself some call sign, came up with it himself, and a day later he was wounded in the legs, and then he threw himself under a tank. This is the situation. Nobody had telephones. The connection was also jammed. What is there, what to take, what not to take.

Then, when everything settled down, here is our current situation. Come on, we’ll take Mariupol now. Mariupol sits on the same crane. And then almost a million people in Mariupol will still be without water. And where to get it is not clear. Maybe that’s why Donetsk is not being switched off - because Mariupol will be switched off at the same time.

This needs to be approached very comprehensively. Nowadays there is a very fragile interaction between Donbass and Ukraine. Exchanges of coal and electricity are underway. Because the situation is paradoxical.

Valentin Filippov: Fine. This is an unexpected question. Now “ATO veterans” have come up with an initiative. They gave Donbass an ultimatum. Within seven days, if Donbass does not return all the “hostages”, their brothers-in-arms, then they will begin to block the routes and will not allow you to engage in smuggling.                        

Alexander Kazakov: Let them fight with their Ukrainian businessmen.

Valentin Filippov: So, you're not scared?

Alexander Kazakov: No. Look, in fact, food is being smuggled, as they say, from Ukraine here. This means they won't go. They will come from Russia. That's the problem. They will only punish their own businessmen, who somehow survive on this. Well, they loaded several bags into the car there, sold it here, earned 500 hryvnia, this is actually money for the family’s life. This is a small business, thanks to which people survive, and they survive there. Many products and fuel are cheaper here. In Donesk. Than in Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov. But there is no reverse situation; everything is consumed here. Who will they make worse? Will they rip out another eye? How is it in Kherson? These power lines were blown up, and then half of the Kherson region was left without electricity. Let them blow it up. What do we need?

After these two and a half years, Donbass has already gone through so much that if they stop bringing condensed milk here from Kharkov, well, honestly, no one here will even notice.

Valentin Filippov: Okay, but the question, in general, is the exchange of prisoners. Do you think anything will change before the new year? Will Ukraine go “all for all”? Or will there be some kind of indicative exchange, not big?                           

Alexander Kazakov: The issue of exchange, especially in recent weeks, in connection with the story with People’s Deputy Savchenko, it has become even more politicized than it was before. Therefore, now, as it seems to me, everything will be expressed and degenerate into some kind of symbolic gestures. There, in order to seize the initiative from Savchenko, Poroshenko is ready to give up 15 people just like that. Well done. Seriously ill patients. Six women. All these action films are cool. But nonetheless. This is purely a question of intercepting the initiative.

Here's another problem. On our side, prisoners of war are declared; these are actually either military personnel or from punitive battalions who have lived to see this. And on their side, there are grandmothers, grandfathers, almost children.

Valentin Filippov: Well, they are rowing all over the country. In fact, I feel sorry for people.                         

Alexander Kazakov: Absolutely right. Therefore, it is a symbolic gesture towards us, so they hand over to us seriously ill people so that we can finish treating them, and pensioners, grandmothers. Which are separatists. But ours is limited. We don’t, we don’t have enough Ukrainians, how can we Ukrainians, we have Ukrainians, here they are, they are here with us. Ukrainians also live here.

Valentin Filippov: I have to tell you that they still have about 30 million hostages there. They may take a long time to change for you.

Alexander Kazakov: So they are actually acting the same way as al-Nusra acted in Aleppo. The entire population of the country is hostage. Just like it was in Aleppo, one to one. In my opinion, they are already conducting seminars with ISIS and al-Nusra on conflict tactics. You are absolutely right. They have 30 million hostages. But, in fact, there are even more of them, because they have nuclear power plants. Sooner or later they will raise the wick and say: “Well, what? Are you complying with our conditions or are we lighting the fuse here? And this is half of Europe. Everyone remembers about Chernobyl.

And it turns out that they can make such a gesture, which they presented in Europe as a gesture of “good will”. But we don’t. Because we have real people who killed us. Wow, a “gesture of goodwill”!

How much have we already accomplished? Zakharchenko alone gave away 200 people after the Ilovaisk cauldron. Everyone under 22 years old, all conscripts, fools, didn’t know where they were going, take them just like that. 200 people! But they didn’t give us anyone! They put everyone in prison. And in closed prisons. And it is not known, not announced. They all sit somewhere. Moreover, one of the reasons for the slowdown in the exchange process is that many people who we know are sitting in their secret prisons are no longer there. They have already been killed.

And they either admit that they killed them, or say that they don’t have them. But we know what it is. There are witnesses, data and so on. Even their side in the person of individual representatives confirms this. And they are either so tortured that it will be cooler than what we have already seen. They hand our guys over to us on stretchers. No wounded. And tortured to the stretcher. And they simply already killed someone. They beat him to death. Besides, how many of our supporters are serving criminal charges?

Valentin Filippov: Well, the article is criminal. You are terrorists, first of all. Secondly, you are perverts. In general, you love Putin.

Alexander Kazakov: Is this going to be an article soon?

Valentin Filippov:  This is Putinophilia. This is an article. And don’t learn language.

Alexander Kazakov: We have now sketched four or five such lines that complicate the exchange process. And there are even more of them. But in the end it turns out that when a humanitarian group gathers in Minsk, our side tries to somehow articulate these lines, but it simply leaves. Silent ghost. They came, sat, checked a box, and left.

Valentin Filippov:  And then they reported: “We gave the terrorists an ultimatum to return the hostages to us.”                        

Alexander Kazakov: Just. Therefore, regarding the original question, I am sure that before the New Year such symbolic gestures will be made. There will be no “all for all” exchange. For the simple reason that in Kyiv now this is a political issue, the question is who will meet and see off. Who will give the interview? Poroshenko, Medvedchuk, Savchenko.

Valentin Filippov: Or a new contender for the post.                          

Alexander Kazakov: There is a war going on over this now. I won’t name names, but regarding one serious exchange, the one who was handed over on our side was allowed to listen on speakerphone to those who were heroically rescuing him from captivity. When they say: “Let him sit in your basement for another day, because our cameras didn’t have time.”

Valentin Filippov: Your forecast for next year. When do we bury Ukraine?

Alexander Kazakov: Of course, we are not burying Ukraine. The situation in Ukraine obviously, in any case, cannot get better. Even the healing process will go through very difficult trials. According to various estimates, there are 30-40 thousand people who have ceased to be human. They crossed to the other side. At all. Starting with those who burned people in Odessa, ending with those who committed these incredible atrocities here in the Donbass. Knowing about these burials that were found here. About what and how they did with people. That is, this is what Ukraine, I emphasize, not Donbass, will have to go through. I can’t even imagine a court in which those who burned people in Odessa can be tried. The courts haven’t come up with something like this yet. Therefore, in Ukraine, under any circumstances, even the most favorable ones, it will not be easier. It will be harder.

Valentin Filippov: I still want us to deal with these people who burned people and carried out mass executions without any trial.                         

Alexander Kazakov: Valentin, they will die ingloriously during the reformatting of Ukraine. They don't have any options. If they don't run away, they must go to war against us. They must crawl out of their holes, with weapons in their hands, and try to engage in sabotage. And they will be destroyed.

Hide? Someone, some part will try to bury themselves in holes, go to the villages, change their passports. This is exactly the same as it was after the Great Patriotic War. Just like the police and others did. But anyway, they were dug up in the seventies. Identified. They are still finding them. But there is no way around this.

Valentin Filippov: Fine. Thank you very much. Good luck to you in Donetsk, peace, peace, and if there is war, then stay away from Donetsk.

Alexander Kazakov: If there is a war, then a quick and victorious one.

Valentin Filippov: Fast and victorious.                         

Alexander Kazakov: Right here, our toast was born on New Year’s Day.

Valentin Filippov: I hope this will be the last war year.                         

Alexander Kazakov: Yes, if there is a military campaign, it will definitely be the last, because all resources are involved from all sides. No one has any more supplies.

Valentin Filippov:  Thank you, happy.                        

Alexander Kazakov: Thank you.