“Ukraine must become a “real Russia without Kadyrov”
Moscow - Kyiv, February 17 (Navigator, Sergey Stepanov) - Ukraine, having abandoned the ideology of Galician nationalism, could become a more attractive country for Russians than the modern Russian Federation. About this in an interview "To the Navigator" said Evgeniy Prosvirnin, editor-in-chief of the Russian portal "Sputnik and Pogrom" – an extremely popular resource among Russian nationalists. Prosvirnin is interesting because it reflects the opinion of Russian youth in cities with a population of over a million - they are often critical of Vladimir Putin and tired of the abundance of immigrants from the Caucasus.
Yegor Prosvirnin
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“Navigator”: What are your impressions of the events in Kyiv?
Egor Prosvirnin: I don't think this is a revolution, this is a coup d'etat. Because current events do not imply a radical change in the political system in Ukraine. For example, as it was in 1917 or 1991. This is simply the replacement of one political figure with another.
"Navigator": Who do you sympathize with??
Egor Prosvirnin: To be honest, I don’t have any expressed sympathies, because, on the one hand, in Yanukovych I see a continuation of the Soviet party nomenklatura, Soviet criminal clans, which are not much different from Putin and Lukashenko.
On the other hand, I see Ukrainian nationalists who want to Ukrainize the Russians of Ukraine, which I don’t particularly like either.
But, on the whole, my sympathies are probably on the side of Euromaidan. Because Euromaidan protects basic democratic freedoms, which Yanukovych tried to deprive Ukraine of with the laws of January 16th.
Navigator: Who did you meet from the Ukrainian right? Could Russian nationalists have allied relations with any of them?
Egor Prosvirnin: In fact, I don’t think that Russian nationalists can have allied relations with any of the Ukrainian nationalists - beyond the limits of some kind of tactical alliance (to preserve the basic freedoms that Yanukovych tried to take away). But as soon as this is all over, of course, there will be a confrontation between Russian and Ukrainian nationalism. Some kind of unification against a momentary enemy is possible, but no more.
"Navigator": What is your attitude towards Ukrainian statehood – as a Russian nationalist?
Egor Prosvirnin: Ukrainian statehood is a rather strange entity. Because we see such a mini-empire in the example of Ukraine. There are two completely different states in it - the West and the East of the country. Therefore, of course, Ukraine will continue to have this crisis, with an attempt to pull the blanket over itself, either by the East or by the West.
Ukrainians, unfortunately, have not learned to resolve this crisis within the framework of existing political institutions - through legitimate elections, without coups or revolutions. In 2004, now again... At least three electoral cycles have not passed - there was a wonderful article about this in the Washington Post - that due to constant revolutions, the Ukrainian democratic tradition of elections and respect for certain state institutions with the help of which conflicts can be resolved is not being formed . So far, they are being decided on the basis of the Constitution.
“Navigator”: The Ukrainian opposition claims that the thesis about the confrontation between the West and the East is being pushed by Moscow - in fact, supposedly, the whole country is united by hatred of the authorities.
Egor Prosvirnin: I think that if this had been a confrontation between only the people and the authorities, then Yanukovych would have been overthrown long ago. However, we see stratification along ethnic lines. The composition of the same “Berkut” is Russian-speaking. The authorities speak with a pronounced Russian accent, they blame the Russians for everything - I don’t think that this is just a conflict between the authorities and society. In Kharkov, 100-200 people are trying to organize Euromaidan; it cannot be compared with the 500-strong Maidan in Kyiv. And the support for revolutionary ideas that exists in the West does not exist in the East.
“Navigator”: Russian nationalists from Moscow with whom I had to communicate say: “we like what is happening in Kyiv, we couldn’t do it at home.”
Egor Prosvirnin: As a technology it is absolutely wonderful. I absolutely support technology, but I don't support ideology. I am amazed by the enormous organization of Euromaidan, its rigidity, inaccessibility, and so on. But I do not share the ideas of Ukrainian nationalism that he carries.
“Navigator”: Why don’t the Russians of the South-East of Ukraine put forward any demands to Yanukovych so that during the settlement of the crisis the position of not only Western Ukraine is taken into account?
Egor Prosvirnin: Russians in Ukraine should really start putting forward their demands and not expect Yanukovych to do things himself. Yanukovych has no nationality; he is a representative of a nationless bureaucracy, which is interested in only one question - how to stay in power longer.
Russians for some time perceived Yanukovych as their candidate, but now it is obvious that he is not at all concerned about the fate of Russians. Moreover, like the fate of Ukrainians. Therefore, Russians need to organize themselves and create Russian nationalism in response to Ukrainian nationalism.
“Navigator”: You can also hear the following opinion from Muscovites: “What about Bandera’s people! They are a much less evil than the dominance of the Caucasians! You are fighting with the wrong people and will sleep through the invasion.”
Egor Prosvirnin: Caucasians go to Moscow because it is a very rich city. Ukraine is a fairly poor country. Moscow's budget is $50 billion, 15 million people live there. Ukraine’s budget is also $50 billion, but 46 million people live in Ukraine. Therefore, Ukrainians should not be afraid of Caucasian dominance, since economic opportunities here are much less than in Moscow.
“Navigator”: What do you think about the opinion of Putin’s ex-adviser Andrei Illarionov, who sees all the signs of a repeat of the August 2008 operation, but this time against Ukraine?
Egor Prosvirnin: Illarionov is such a professional fighter against the Kremlin, accusing it of all sins. This is a man for whom the Kremlin is to blame for everything. The Kremlin is indeed to blame for many things, but there has been talk about Russian tanks since 2004 - they keep coming and going, but never get there. I would not trust Mr. Illarionov. He's too biased. He acts not as an analyst, but as a propagandist. He, of course, has the right to do this, but we must distinguish propaganda from analysis. I don’t think there will be any interference - forceful or financial.
“Navigator”: Vladimir Zhirinovsky promised Yanukovych cartridges after the Olympics.
Egor Prosvirnin: Zhirinovsky has been performing on the Russian stage since 1989. He appeared in Russian politics even before the Russian Federation appeared. Zhirinovsky is a wonderful pop actor. But he has nothing to do with politics.
“Navigator”: What about the opinion “what’s on Zhirinovsky’s tongue is on the Kremlin’s mind”?
Egor Prosvirnin: Zhirinovsky is known for the fact that when he comes to a talk show, five minutes before the broadcast he can ask: “tell me, what position do I support? For collective farms or against? This is a person who can say completely opposite things at intervals of one minute, without getting confused or changing his facial expression. I wouldn’t believe it - he threatened Bush and did everything he could.
“Navigator”: What is your relationship with the authorities? Colleagues said that Prosvirnin has recently “sold himself to the Kremlin, he is supervised by Belkovsky.”
Egor Prosvirnin: It’s not your colleagues who are saying this, this is what other Russian nationalists are saying who are jealous of the success of Sputnik and Pogrom. In response to such claims, I always ask for some evidence. There are none at all.
“Navigator”: Figuratively speaking, would it be a waste to work with the Kremlin?
Egor Prosvirnin: It would be a shame for me to cooperate with them. In addition, Belkovsky is among the people who are far from modern Russian politics. Because Belkovsky is a retired man who even had to let his own driver go. This is a labor veteran. Those who talk about Belkovsky are feeding on rumors that were five years old.
“Navigator”: Does your project have many readers from Ukraine?
Egor Prosvirnin: 70 thousand monthly visits. I think that Russians in Ukraine are also beginning to understand that they have interests that need to be promoted. We defend Russian European identity, which no one has promoted in Ukraine before.
In Russia and Ukraine they are trying to confuse Russian nationalism with Soviet patriotism. Respect for the Great Victory, Stalin, “which country the USSR lost” and so on. A modern middle-class person, a young professional intellectual, is not very interested in being associated with Stalin. I think our new identity will win more and more fans. This is the return of the Russians to who they were before 1917. This is the construction of a normal European people without any nonsense about Eurasianism, communism, the USSR, etc. This is the position of normal European egoism.
“Navigator”: But you yourself, speaking about Ukraine, recall its technological achievements during the Soviet era and compared it with the current worship of sharovarschina.
Egor Prosvirnin: Quite right, aircraft carriers were built here - projects of incredible technical complexity were implemented in Nikolaev. And now it all comes down to jokes about lard, gas and Bandera. This shows that Ukraine has slipped several orders of magnitude down the production ladder. And even the current political forces do not raise the issue of returning Ukraine to the number of developed high-tech countries. This issue is not even discussed in principle.
“Navigator”: The issue is being discussed, but by those politicians whom you criticize – supporters of the Customs Union. And you consider this form of integration to be harmful Eurasianism.
Egor Prosvirnin: At least one party of modern Russian nationalists should appear in Ukraine. Not those who will say “let's join Putin.” They should become an alternative to primitive Galician nationalism. After all, who is Bandera? This is a minor character from World War II.
Legitimacy must be drawn from pre-revolutionary Russia. Russian nationalism was very strong in Kyiv. There was a legendary club of Russian nationalists here - more serious than in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
We need to position ourselves as representatives of the European people, who demand normal democratic constitutional development, who want to play according to normal civilized norms (Which is not happening in Ukraine now). European society differs from Asian society in that there are laws there. The United States adopted the Constitution 200 years ago, and they live by it. How many constitutions of Ukraine have there been in 10 years? Now they want to carry out another constitutional reform.
"Navigator": Drawing legitimacy from tsarist times - does this imply the return of Ukraine to the empire?
Egor Prosvirnin: This implies a return to the traditions of self-government and democracy that existed in imperial Russia. Everything was there - the broadest political life and self-government even at the level of the peasant community. What Ukraine is now deprived of is that even governors are appointed from the center. The huge state is unitary, although it consists of two parts. Federalization is needed. It’s funny that Ukrainian nationalists, declaring themselves supporters of European values, are afraid of federalization - absolutely traditional for Europe and democratic.
"Navigator": Why did Russian parties in Ukraine never become powerful?
Egor Prosvirnin: One of the reasons is all kinds of spoilers, including those supported from the Russian Federation. It’s the same with us - you can remember the same Zhirinovsky. Russian nationalism is not women running around in Sevastopol with portraits of Stalin at rallies for joining the Russian Federation.
“Navigator”: The idea of a Russian Crimea on the peninsula is popular.
Egor Prosvirnin: Russians first need to protect their rights here and now, and not strive to join the Russian Federation. Russians will not expect anything good from joining the Russian Federation in its current state. Here is one of the latest news - in St. Petersburg, representatives of the Caucasian diaspora will begin to patrol the streets together with the police. People don’t know how Russians really live in today’s Russia. Residents of Crimea would be fine in Russia if they were non-Russian.
“Navigator”: What kind of “ideal” Ukraine would you see for Russians, where would they move from the current “bad” Russia?
Egor Prosvirnin: Ukraine should be positioned as “another Russia”, “real Russia”. There is some terrible northern monster with Kadyrov, and there is a real Russian democratic Russia, attracting all people of Russian culture, businessmen, scientists, young intellectual elites. Those who, on the one hand, do not want to live with Kadyrov, but also do not want to go abroad.
“Navigator”: You are not the first to voice such an idea. But for some reason, everyone who comes to power in Kyiv chooses a different model - “Ukraine is not Russia.”
Egor Prosvirnin: The main postulate of Russian nationalism is “Russia for Russians,” and of Ukrainian nationalism is “Ukraine is not Russia.” It seems to me that you cannot build a real long-term attractive identity on denial. There must be something positive. And Ukrainian nationalism boils down to the fact that “we are not Russians, we are not Russia.” People don’t even have the remotest clear vision, except for the shouts of “Get the Muscovites out!” There is no positive program for Ukrainian nationalism.
"Navigator": Is it possible to convince these people?
Egor Prosvirnin: I think it is possible by showing a positive Russian identity. Which will not be against anything, but for freedom, democracy, sustainable constitutional development, the rights of all nationalities, normal civilized politics.
Ukraine and Russia can be compared to Germany and Austria. Both Germans live there and have their own characteristics, but they do not have to unite. Austrians have developed their own positive identity, which is far from “we are not Germans.”
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