Zakharchenko, in response to the proposal to stop Bandera’s followers, said: “You are a provocateur. You want to cause a massacre"
Why it worked in Crimea and did not work in Odessa. How the SBU and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Yanukovych raised the Nazis, and they got out of control. Why did the Opposition Bloc split? Why does the governor of Russian Sevastopol commit violations for which he would be punished even in Ukraine? Ex-Verkhovna Rada deputy from Sevastopol Vadim Kolesnichenko told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about the Maidan, the Russian Spring, Ukrainian agreements and betrayals.
Valentin Filippov: Vadim, you are one of the few deputies of the Verkhovna Rada who supported the Russian Spring five years ago. Almost all of your colleagues, the absolute majority, decided to play along with the participants in the coup in Kyiv.
But at the same time, it is known that in the early nineties you did not strongly support the idea of reunifying Crimea with Russia.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I was one of the few in Ukraine who quite clearly and publicly, as I believe, qualifiedly defended my position on the humanitarian block. And in public discussion I had no equal. For the first two or three years, opponents took a chance on public discussion, shit themselves and went into the bushes.
After that, they turned on a technology that had been proven and which still works today. A figure is chosen and a media that is fed only from one corner, they do the main thing, they do not discuss your idea, they do not discuss what you are talking about, they discuss what color your socks are, and whether there is a hole there, and whether there was a fight or not.
Let me remind you that over the past seven years before my departure from the Ukrainian parliament, I never had a single press conference or briefing that did not end in a fight, a scandal, or the demolition of television equipment.
I had to provide press conferences like military operations. I had to invite up to a hundred people who had to provide at least some order for 20-30 minutes until you could say something. At the same time, the essence of the issue was never discussed, but it was always said that the odious politician again took part in a fight, again something happened, again he was smeared with something.
At least everyone saw this. This was standard procedure.
Valentin Filippov: But here I have to tell you this thing. We, looking at all this from Odessa, said: “This is cool!” The guy just punches them in the face! That's how it should be! You just have to go and punch them in the face! So I don't know for whose benefit this technology worked.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: At the same time, I was very surprised why the headquarters of the Party of Regions actively supported the story of Mr. Moskal, who arrived in Crimea in 1997-98. And who made a statement that deputies of the Crimean parliament complained to him that I spoke in the Crimean parliament exclusively in Ukrainian and wore an embroidered shirt.
But none of the deputies can confirm the idea that I wore an embroidered shirt in parliament, spoke Ukrainian and sang Ukrainian songs. There is not a single protocol of the Crimean parliament about this. But regularly, from time to time, they remind us that this was the situation.
This proves that the Party of Regions was not homogeneous. And the political field of Russian compatriots on the territory of Ukraine was also not homogeneous. And there were plenty of open SBU agents who corrupted the Russian movement, who fought against the Russian movement. Some of them are still legalized, are located on the territory of Ukraine, and are setting up a lot of people.
Valentin Filippov: But aren’t there any of them on Russian territory? These SBU agents in Russian movements?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Alas. Unfortunately, we see these big problems. The mysterious Ukrainian soul, especially from Western Ukraine, is different in that it is to find someone who will pay more and promise sweeter things.
It probably was. It probably is. And this probably will happen.
Valentin Filippov: You mentioned the contradictions within the Party of Regions itself. Today its fragments – the “Opposition Bloc” – tried to rush into battle. And they couldn’t come to an agreement among themselves. What's stopping them? Are these agents somehow breaking them up, or do they each have a star burning in their forehead? How was it possible to go with three candidates?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I have already made my statement on this matter. Moreover, on February 20, 2014, I made a slightly obscene statement. When I said that I would no longer be in parliament for many reasons. The first is that I didn’t want to be close to those who killed people on the Maidan. Who were the organizing participants. I named these names.
And secondly, I spoke with my colleagues, I explained to them that we do not have the right to enter parliament. Because if you enter, you will form a constitutional majority, you will legalize the coup d'etat.
True, I was not a businessman in politics, but perhaps a bit of a romantic. We need to clearly understand what Ukrainian politics is. Ukrainian politics is interesting because it has nothing to do with politics. These are agreements between oligarchic clans. Who can carry out more mandates, and who then divides the budgets. Therefore, this had nothing to do with politics.
And what is happening in Ukraine today is the fault of the South-East. This is the fault of those people who stupidly stole money. Or they earned money, it depends. While they were dividing up money, while they were filling their pockets, the Western Ukrainian community, which needed to be given at least something, took part in the humanitarian block and they were well financed by the Americans. And this turning point in public consciousness and politics happened.
I can say that when my colleagues started entering parliament, I made a lot of statements and called each other. They simply wanted, as in 2004, as in 2006, an agreement. “I pay this, you pay me this, then we divide.” As has always been the case, it was meant to be. And that's how they planned it.
But, in fact, most of them gave away their money, some received something, and some were thrown away. This is how someone was able to come to an agreement.
Valentin Filippov: OK then. Well, now there are elections. What is the point for them to choose three candidates?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Now in the presidential campaign, none of the so-called opposition claims the right to be president.
Valentin Filippov: But it would be possible to bargain. You can enter into an alliance with someone. Draw votes. This is just a commercial thing. Well, this Vilkul wins. Or Rabinovich. Rabinovich is a good surname. He's third there. And he says to Zelensky, who is coming second: “Let’s unite, let’s go on one front, then Poroshenko will give money to everyone so that we can withdraw.”
Yes?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: In Ukrainian politics, what you are talking about is quite real. Quite acceptable. And naturally.
Valentin Filippov: Yes. But the three of them go and gain nothing.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: They are not going to gain anything. For one simple reason. This panopticon of forty candidates is an issue with two purposes.
First, each party must take part in elections for 10 years. Otherwise it will be cancelled. What is the party for? In order to move on to the parliamentary elections. And the parliamentary ones are now being tested. Their supporters are revealed. A scheme is being built. The structure is being built. That is, preparations are underway for a big parliamentary campaign. These are simply training runs.
When we talk about the opposition, I ask a question: – Please take the entire list of parliamentary votes, and see how when and for what a representative of the opposition voted. There is nothing further to talk about. Is it opposition or not opposition?
But, on the other hand, I understand the people who are in Kyiv today in the same way. And, by the way, about those who were in the parliament building in February 2014. But I know for sure that some of the children were held hostage by those deputies. They were taken to the forest. Relatives were under machine gun barrels.
Everyone made their own choice.
Whether something could have been done or not, it’s difficult for me to answer. I was just really lucky that an hour before the city was closed, I flew with my family to my home in Sevastopol. After that, my photographs were hung all over Kyiv. It wouldn't seem too much to me. To put it mildly.
Therefore, how people felt there, what they did and why, is a matter of everyone’s conscience.
Valentin Filippov: Yes. It has come to this, we have lost, everyone decides for themselves how to surrender and behave in captivity.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: When the Party of Regions held its congress in March 2014, I addressed the party congress. We then in Sevastopol decided to terminate the activities of the party on the territory of Sevastopol. It was March 7th. Due to the fact that the Party of Regions cannot be located on the territory of a foreign state. I then made a request to clean up the party and discard the rubbish that accompanied it. And in the end, I even planned to fly, they even gave me such an opportunity. But respected people said: You simply won’t make it. The plane will be grounded in transit, and no one will need it anymore.
From that moment on, all illusions about Ukrainian politics completely ended for me. And I can say one thing. It is not the voters who determine who becomes president of Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: It's true.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: This issue is resolved by agreement. Therefore, all these ritual dances that we look at, they need to be looked at as a performance. Cheap comedy.
Valentin Filippov: Excuse me, but an agreement is not an agreement, but we saw from the example of the Maidan that this agreement is made under certain conditions. And we create these conditions ourselves. Yes?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: They say that the same Tyagnibok and the Svoboda party are a technological project of the Party of Regions. They came up with such a spoiler so that there would be an opponent convenient for Yanukovych. If this is suddenly true, then who even came up with this idea? Who came up with this idea? And who let it get out of control?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I cannot confirm this one hundred percent, but these conclusions are drawn based on an analysis of the situation. For example, how could it happen that two years before the parliamentary campaign, when Svoboda first entered parliament, there were representatives of Svoboda on all radio and television channels? I am regularly taken off air as a representative of the supposedly ruling party. A person who should act at least as an alternative. After all, according to the rules of journalism, there must be an opponent. But there were none of our people, and “Svoboda” was everywhere.
At the same time, we know that all this was done for money. Where did the Svoboda party get so much money from to buy such broadcasts? Commanded from the presidential administration.
Did I see Tyagnibok at the headquarters of the Party of Regions? - Saw. And how he left through the underground garage of the Party of Regions headquarters. I cannot say that I was present during the transfer of money. But the fact that negotiations were held with them is clear.
And the fact that the idea of unwinding this fascist bogeyman, it worked within the party. Yes, she worked. One of the authors of this idea is Mr. Manafort. American technologist who has worked with Yanukovych since 2004. Very competent, intelligent technologist. A specialist who worked exclusively for results. And the result he produced was certainly of high quality.
And the question of whether we saw it or not, Tsarev spoke about this more than once... Since 2007, we have shown videos, combat leaflets, combat training magazines for children who were trained in so-called scout camps. "Zvytyagy camps." Czech Republic. Slovakia. In Poland. In Western Ukraine. Children, youth and teenagers were trained there for combat operations in the city. And when we came to the head of the SBU, to the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, they told us: “Don’t exaggerate.” This is patriotic education. Don't interfere.
I especially liked when Yanukovych became president after 2010, he explained that “We need to unite the region, and you are trying to tear it apart.”
When there were Bandera marches on the first of January, we had 800 people in Sevastopol, representatives of the sports community, with whom we seriously decided how to resist this. In Kyiv there were from one and a half to two thousand people who were ready. They came to me and said: give us the opportunity to just meet, but we need a guarantee that we will not be bullied for this.
And I came to Mr. Zakharchenko (Vitaly Zakharchenko, head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine under Yanukovych, - ed.) He says: “You are a provocateur.” You want to cause a massacre.
And all these marches, they were clear and understandable. There was a bandit party in front, and behind them there was a mass of rednecks who would have fled immediately.
Valentin Filippov: I want to remind you of this situation, then the first success of the Svoboda party in Odessa. During the time of the Party of Regions, the Tyagnibokovites managed to take 6%. This surprised Odessa very much. And when they started checking where and in which polling stations the Svoboda party gained such crazy percentages, it turned out that it was in the dormitories of Sergei Kivalov.
I'm aware of this story. It was quite a big shock. Sergei Kivalov is your comrade-in-arms. He was awarded orders and medals from Russia for friendship. And your co-author on the Russian language law. And he very seriously represented the Party of Regions in Odessa and the Odessa region. And the fact that administrative resources were clearly used, that suddenly the students of the Law Academy unanimously voted for the Svoboda party...
Vadim Kolesnichenko: You probably only know the top part of the medal. And the second part of the medal is different. A lot of people from Western Ukraine studied at the Academy with Kivalov. Alas. When a person has been zombified in one direction for 20 years, it is simply impossible to change him in two or three years of work or study in Odessa.
Valentin Filippov: But the fact is that it is interesting that it was the Academy of Law that provided the maximum number of students for all the events of the Party of Regions. Who are very disciplined...
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I cannot evaluate Kivalov's work. But we understand that if people come from a specific territory, then they have specific goals, they have specific tasks, and how the network structure in Western Ukraine works, especially through sectarian themes and Catholic themes, we know this very well. Therefore, I think, in this part, not everything is so simple.
But about the fact that “Svoboda” began to win, the question is, for example, where did the ultras come from? This C14, Right Sector, because they were born in the ultras system. They were born in Dynamo Kiev.
And we had a draft law on combating terrorism and extremism among fans, agreed upon with FIFA and UEFA, which would stop these muzzles on their faces. And the guys, in fact, they underwent combat training, they learned how to fight the police. As a result, with the most difficult conflicts, with the most serious scandals, I managed to drag this draft law into the parliament building five times under the conditions of EURO 2012.
At the last minute it is removed. Why? Mr. Zakharchenko calls back and says: “No, the bill is not ready yet.” The bill cannot be passed.
So, you know, there are too many coincidences. Analyzing all this, I understand that yes. They were building a methodology so that Mr. Yanukovych would enter the second round of voting on a shining horse and say: “Do you want fascists?” Or do you want me?
It was all technology, of course. But there is one caveat. All Ukrainian politics is full of peasantism. We need to think broadly and look further. But when you ate lard here, and wrapped a herring here, and you think that you will outplay everyone, and you don’t pay for it, and you also trick people and collect money, you must understand that an answer will come.
The Americans worked in parallel. The same Manafort, he didn’t work for Yanukovych. He worked for himself. For the cases that were offered to him in the States. Otherwise, how could he work in Ukraine for so long? And they simply led people into a trap with velvet silk hands. And the way representatives of the European community did not allow Yanukovych to use force to eliminate him suggests that he was being led like a sheep to the slaughter. Which is exactly what happened.
This is absurd and a joke - the Party of Regions refuses to support what he is talking about. He is offended. He leaves, and then people-deputies begin to have problems with business, problems begin with loved ones, with relatives. This technology worked in secret. Therefore, one can have different attitudes, but when they say that the Party of Regions betrayed someone, I would not say that.
The people who worked in the cities, they were united in one structure, they honestly did and completed their work. But it’s not their fault that they were headed by people who used the party exclusively as a tool for making money.
And a coup was being prepared for 2015. Everyone already knew about this.
Valentin Filippov: Well, then on the fifteenth!
Vadim Kolesnichenko: That’s why the Maidan dragged on for so long. Because no one expected Yanukovych to buck. And he bucked only for one simple reason. The Party of Regions faction refused to vote for ratification of this agreement. This was in public. He came, there was a scandal.
And the reason was very simple. Until August, no one in Ukraine had seen the text of this agreement on European integration.
Only our colleagues found it in English in Europe, made a translation, and when they gave it to our industrialists, they read it, then the riot began.
And it broke down, I can’t say it was spontaneous, but two months of build-up happened for a simple reason: the Americans managed to mobilize a large amount of money and deploy all these structures.
Although, the so-called autocamps, in which the US Ambassador took part, were held in the territories every two months. In August, even in Donetsk, it was held on the territory of an abandoned factory, where it was impossible to get into. And there these child bloggers were trained and paid, and told how to carry out coups.
I can say one thing. Not only was there internal betrayal, but there was also bungling. Ministry of Internal Affairs, SBU... And the Ukrainian diplomatic services, they have never been pro-Ukrainian. All these guys always worked for the West, always snitched, always set us up.
Valentin Filippov: Yes. You have now convinced me of the main thing. The correctness of our choice. Although it’s sad that only Crimea. For five years we have already been citizens of Russia and Crimea in another state.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I'll interrupt you. Again we must return to the Party of Regions. In fact, a unique event occurred. Our international organization of Russian compatriots wrote a certificate to the OSCE and the Council of Europe. The Legal Center wrote a certificate for the UN. For the entire World, self-government is a sacred cow. Legitimately elected local governments are key. For the US, Germany and France, regional policies are key heavyweights. And you will not get into central politics if you have not proven yourself at the regional level. Well, plus, Ukraine signed an agreement - the Charter on Local Self-Government.
So that's what happened. Deputies of the Party of Regions, both in the Crimean Parliament and in the Sevastopol Legislative Assembly, they made legal decisions in the absence of a Constitution, they announced a legitimate referendum. At the same time, the decision was made very competently, from the point of view of international law. First, independence was declared. And only after this fact, which was not protested, did the executive bodies of Sevastopol and Crimea turn to Russia with a request to accept us into its friendly embrace. It is very important.
What happened in Lugansk and Donetsk? Local legally elected self-government bodies refused to support the population. And the referendums, although they were held with the highest turnout, were announced by amateur groups of the population. And amateur groups of the population formed referendum commissions. We are not talking about emotions, we are talking about law.
Therefore, for Europe, as for any person, it is clear that it was simply impossible to recognize this as legal. Therefore, Russia’s hands were freed in Crimea and Sevastopol. And as for Odessa, Kherson, Nikolaev, nowhere did local governments in any way support the local population.
Valentin Filippov: I would argue. I, of course, am not at the same level as you. But I am absolutely sure that if our Odessa politicians, officials, legally elected deputies received some kind of encouraging signal from Moscow, they would do all this.
Our governor sat and waited for a week. And he barricaded himself, brought concrete blocks for checkpoints and all that. And then he said, guys, Moscow doesn’t need us. And left. And instead they sent an orange one.
Send it to Odessa, I’ll cut it out, send it to Odessa... for negotiations with local elites, that’s b... lem. I'll cut it out.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: You know, you don't have to cut it. I am speaking based on the situation in Odessa and Ukraine in general. I believe that the guilt of Russian politics is direct and irredeemable. What happened on the territory of Ukraine.
What? Didn't they know in Russia? Yes, we are tired of talking about what is happening. We are tired of asking for support. But you know what was happening then, and that now, for five years, the trade turnover between Russia and Ukraine is growing year after year, and direct investments from Russia are growing by a billion, one and a half billion a year.
I have a question. So who has what actions with whom? Who has what interests, where? Maybe some are at war, and some are close to their mother?
When compatriots, the largest structure in the world, Russian compatriots in Ukraine, are a waste of money, and not a shisha is given for support. When in Western Ukraine you try to hold a competition for Russian language teachers who live there, as if at the front. At least some competitions. And they say to me: - Sorry, but this is interference in internal affairs...
Valentin Filippov: What kind of Russian language teachers are there in Western Ukraine? How many times have we gathered in Yalta! And coffee and sandwiches.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: This is the answer to the fact that in Odessa they had the right to say this. But! When it took place in Sevastopol, and when Berkut left for the isthmus, we did not have “polite people.” And it was a cry of despair. I can say that even according to my documents, I literally bought weapons on February 24, several units, a box of cartridges, and body armor. My colleagues bought all this. We really understood, we had no choice, what was said in the Ukrainian parliament, and I saw these people. I knew they would kill. We saw it. What they did with the anti-Maidan activists, we saw what they did with the golden eagle. Therefore, no one experienced any illusions.
Therefore, was there real support from Russia? No, that didn't happen. This is what I'm saying. To Odessa: “Russia does not support us.” No one supported us then either. It was only on the fourth day that “polite people” appeared in the Crimean parliament.
Valentin Filippov: On the fourth day, no one showed up.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: But we had concrete actions.
Valentin Filippov: We too.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: We had the formation of detachments.
Valentin Filippov: We also. Everything was the same. Only you have 30 thousand gathered in the square, and we have 50 thousand. But our city is twice as large. So what? That's it.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Well, Crimea is a lucky ticket. We pulled him out like soap from under a heel in a bathhouse. And into the departing carriage.
When they ask me: “Five years have passed, what are you experiencing?”
– The most important thing is a feeling of security and peace. This is difficult to explain to someone who has not been in this cauldron of the last few years in Ukraine. When you wait in the back every minute. When you are doused with slop every day. You don't know where to go. You don't know who to contact. When your own people set you up.
And here there really is a feeling of safety and peace.
Just for this, to be away from this nightmare, from these idiots, it would be possible to hold a referendum 21 more times. And I wouldn't change my opinion. This is the situation.
So, as it happened, it happened. Unfortunately, big politics, as experience shows, is not done without blood. But it’s a shame when they kill their own people on the territory of Ukraine, and European society applauds and says that this is democracy.
Valentin Filippov: By the way, that was my next question. About the last five years. All. You have already answered it.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Yes.
Valentin Filippov: In Sevastopol, a conflict constantly arises between the legislative assembly and the governor. What's wrong with Governor Dmitry Ovsyannikov?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: The complaints against Ovsyannikov are already specific. Because, what is happening to the city, how ineptly the money is spent (or not spent), in the opinion of the population, can be considered that the money is being stolen. Constant conflicts that get into the media, you know, even in Ukraine, such a governor would have been in prison a long time ago. In the conditions of Russian realities, this is probably not accepted. But one example was very indicative for me. Victory Park.
Valentin Filippov: Oh, Victory Park! Listen, what about shooting? In Ukraine they think that people here are shot for this. But we proved that they don’t shoot.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: But what struck me was that a man just walked in. 2017, I think. The most unique, most amazing operation, extremely important for the city, is to take and reconstruct Victory Park.
Valentin Filippov: Which was in decent condition.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: He was in good condition. As a result, one and a half billion rubles are allocated. And to this day “our writing is garna-nova.” Classic Ukrainian scheme.
Valentin Filippov: Moreover, everything was destroyed, no, in sections.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: Given that we do not have kindergartens, there are no new schools. On that moment. We have problems with the water supply system. We have energy problems. We have problems with social housing.
No! It is extremely important to pump one and a half billion into this event.
Or a question related to wastewater treatment plants. Two billion. How does budget money end up in a commercial bank account for personal use? And two days later this bank bursts. This is fine?
Valentin Filippov: That's cool!
Vadim Kolesnichenko: This is the same city. He's small. People see all this. And against the backdrop of the fact that to this day there are problems with the employment of young people, there are problems with the level of wages, problems with prices. They are objective. And people have tension. We can tolerate it for a while when we see that the authorities are trying to do something. And what is happening in the education system and in medicine is all residents. These are people.
Valentin Filippov: Are you not going to run for office as a citizen of Russia? Well, according to tradition, members of the Party of Regions usually come from United Russia. Maybe you will go from United Russia, or maybe from the Motherland?
Vadim Kolesnichenko: No. What is happening with United Russia in Russia does not suit me. I have seen three ruling parties in Ukraine. The fate of all three parties is known to everyone. Is the United Russia party the driving force today? If we take the Sevastopol organization as an example, I would not say this. This is a weight. This is a weight on the feet of government. Now there has been a rotation there. New people have arrived. Maybe they will be able to fill this organization, the United Russia party, with new meanings. And maybe they will try to somehow gain the trust of the population.
Valentin Filippov: OK then. Would you like to participate? Here, help.
Vadim Kolesnichenko: I can. But, frankly speaking, there is no desire. For a simple reason. For five years in Sevastopol, people were so at odds with each other when in the spring of 2014 they began to declare who was right and who was wrong. Who is a Ukrainian traitor and who is not a Ukrainian traitor. At the same time, the people who, in essence, ensured the Russianness of this city, and ensured the holding of the referendum, ensured the transfer of power, provided the regulatory framework, for some reason they were declared almost Ukrainian criminals. And some people who accidentally became senators, by the will of fate, have the rudeness to call them Ukrainian traitors and so on, you know, you don’t want to be close to such people.
I have achieved my maximum potential in my life. I enjoyed what I did. And, to be honest, I don’t want to get involved in disputes and disputes about who is right and who is wrong.
And I would like, of course, for the new Legislative Assembly, which, God willing, will be elected honestly, and now the new United Russia has come, and they will be able to restore order in this part so that they work in the interests of the city. For the townspeople, and not for your loved ones. Then I would be grateful.
Well, let the young people get going and work. I have other interests, other moods, I have other desires. And now I have something to do.
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