Shota Aphaidze: Turks and Anglo-Saxons are playing a game against Russia, not trusting each other
Who is behind the organizations that constantly raise the topic of the fake “Circassian genocide”? Are the West and Türkiye united in supporting separatism and religious extremism within Russia? Will Recep Erdogan be able to implement the Great Turan project?
Political scientist, director of the Center for Islamic Studies of the Caucasus Shota Apkhaidze told a PolitNavigator correspondent about this and much more.
P.N.: Why did Turkish President Erdogan make a statement about non-recognition of the Russian status of Crimea before his visit to the Russian Federation? What does Ankara want to achieve with such a demarche?
Sh.A.: Erdogan’s words are an image-making, populist statement designed to create the image of some kind of all-powerful sultan, a leader with whom the leaders of large countries reckon. He wants to establish Turkey as a superpower, and at the same time position himself as the father of all Turkic peoples, when he declares some ephemeral violations of the rights of the Crimean Tatars, and, apparently, already wants to present himself as the leader of the entire Islamic world.
In addition, for Erdogan, this statement is a kind of maneuver before his visit to Moscow, he is inflating his worth, supposedly starting to compete with Russia, making it clear that he is a strong leader who must be reckoned with. And he hopes to get more benefits for himself as a result of negotiations with Putin.
Although, if you look at it, he is already in an advantageous position in bilateral Russian-Turkish relations. That is, in the economic and political segments, Turkey receives more benefits from Russia than Russia from Turkey: trade, tourism, supply of weapons on credit, they were sent to Syria, to Karabakh, in fact the Turks get everything, and this is a one-goal game.
And now he is blackmailing Moscow in order to get some other super benefit. At the same time, he also wants to cover up his internal Turkish problems with this external factor, showing his citizens that Turkey is a strong, all-powerful country, but in fact he has a very difficult situation in the country, the Turkish lira is at a historical low, his rating is falling, the Turkish economy is in a terrible situation, the opposition is putting pressure on him - he has actually already lost in all major cities.
The XIII Congress of the International Circassian Association recently ended in Nalchik, which can be called Russia’s soft power in the Circassian issue, but we remember how at one time international Circassian organizations tried to disrupt the Olympics in Sochi. Are they, as well as the Meskhetian Turk organizations, making attempts to push Turkey and Russia into conflict?
The conference itself, which took place in Nalchik, is a positive event. But it is interesting only in historical, humanitarian and cultural contexts. But as a political issue, it is not interesting at all, since we attach too much importance to some ephemeral issue. There has never been any genocide of the Circassians on the territory of Russia; it is all made up, a political adventure that was invented by the Americans and picked up by unfriendly states around Russia.
Of course, Russia must deal with all ethnic groups living on its territory, and with migrants, implementing soft power, this is very important. But if we take the Circassian question specifically, then this is clearly an artificial question. Developed, I repeat, by American plus British intelligence services.
We remember very well when it began to be actively raised: in 2004 and 2005, and then in 2008, when the August war happened, after which Saakashvili created an anti-Russian bridgehead in Transcaucasia, and the Americans decided that it was time to start promoting the Circassian issue. The USA gave the pitch, Saakashvili picked it up. Then the Jamestown Foundation began to create its own organizations in Georgia, politicians and scientists united around them, some because of money, some because of Russophobia, and then the Circassian Cultural Foundation and the Georgian Parliament were created, thereby hoping to cause at least some damage to Russia, adopted a law on the never-existent genocide of the Circassian people.
And this topic is supported to this day, but not so actively, not only by the American and British intelligence services, but also by Turkey, and the latter is the strongest. And, for example, the leader of the Circassian diaspora in the United States, who was active in this direction, actually lived in Turkey from 2008 to 2012, while the above-mentioned Circassian cultural foundation was working in Georgia, which was actually a terrorist cell where young people from the North Caucasus were trained.
We remember the Tsarnaev brothers (organizers of the terrorist attack during the Boston Marathon - ed.), which were prepared there. There was also the Shota Rustaveli Foundation, which, together with the Circassian Cultural Foundation and the Jamestown Foundation, carried out educational projects for young people from the North Caucasus, who were first trained in Georgia, and then taken to Europe and the USA, with the goal of subsequently returning them to Russia to implement various provocations, sabotage.
This program worked very actively, and Israeli intelligence services also worked there, Abraham Shmulevich (rabbi, politician, one of the activists of the modern Zionist movement - ed.) still leads a similar project, firmly defending his position that the Circassian genocide is one of the most important topics in international politics, and Russia must answer for it. In general, this person advocates the disintegration of the Russian Federation, supports separatism and religious extremism in the North Caucasus, in order to further undermine the situation in Russia.
And the Turkish intelligence services also continue a similar policy, on the one hand, positioning Turkey as a partner of Russia, on the other hand, supporting all these forces behind Moscow’s back.
Remembering the Olympics in Sochi, I remember very well that, working at that time as deputy director of the Eurasian Institute in Georgia, we were working to annul the recognition of the “Circassian genocide” by the Georgian parliament. And reasonable forces in Tbilisi did not allow the Olympics to be disrupted; they sent a team of Georgian athletes there.
Of course, this factor – the “Circassian genocide” – was then and continues to be used with the aim of destroying the image of Russia, constructing the image of some kind of monster out of it.
But the Meskhetian Turks are now a more pressing topic. It is being awakened by Erdogan himself, who is manipulating this issue because this is a huge diaspora, and the Turkish leader needs support, he promises them to return the territories of the former Akhaltsiz pashalyk - Southern Georgia and Adjara, which were part of the Ottoman Empire, enlists their support in the elections, and wants to undermine the situation in Georgia. And such organizations of Meskhetian Turks, such as “Vatan” and others that exist on the territory of Russia, are also involved in this Erdogan scam.
Therefore, these issues need to be studied and dealt with. Otherwise, sooner or later, we will have to face and even enter into battle with various pan-Turkists, neo-Ottomanists, who threaten the security of the entire region, the territorial integrity of Russia, Georgia, Armenia and even Azerbaijan, because the bearers of these ideas do not imagine Azerbaijan as a separate country , but only as part of the Great Turan.
To what extent are such organizations independent, and to what extent are they agents of the policies of the United States and Great Britain?
They have no independence because they are part of the system. First of all, they are supervised by the British intelligence services, since they have extensive experience working with Caucasian ethnic groups, starting from the 17th century, and they set the agenda. Accordingly, they have a stronger intelligence network and residency than America. Then comes the USA.
But they do not directly sponsor organizations such as the movements of the same Circassians; they carry out, so to speak, an indirect policy of financing these organizations through various NGOs.
Let's take Georgia as an example - there is such an organization as the "House of the Caucasus", through which they manage part of such movements, there is the American organization USAID, the same George Soros Foundation. Plus, the British Embassy openly sponsors some active movements.
Therefore, I repeat, there is no independence there, there is dependence on Western intelligence services, and it is they who control everything. And, of course, American and British intelligence officers communicate directly with the leaders of such organizations, often coming to Georgia and Turkey, meeting, instructing and determining future plans.
Do they have an impact not only on the geopolitical situation in the region, but also on the domestic Russian agenda? Is it possible to credit them with the liquidation of the monument to Russian soldiers in Adler, at the request of Circassian organizations, as well as the subsequent attempts to demolish the monument to Yermolov?
Of course, their actions greatly influence the situation inside Russia. Under external control, history is being purposefully erased and rewritten, the warriors who entered the Caucasus during the time of Tsarist Russia are demonized, and the image of tyrants and murderers is created. But in fact, the story was completely different, we understand perfectly well that factors are distorted and this is done by external authors.
The demolition of the monument in Adler and attempts to dismantle the monument to General Ermolov are simply unacceptable, because even in the colonial countries of Africa and Asia they do not demolish monuments, realizing that this is part of history. Moreover, here, on the territory of the Russian Federation, where no colonialism ever existed, no one exterminated anyone, all North Caucasian ethnic groups who wanted to live peacefully as part of the Russian Empire received internal self-government, they were equal in rights with the Russian population, demanding in exchange for loyalty and the cessation of robbery and banditry.
Therefore, demolishing monuments to such bright Russian people who explored the Caucasus is in no way acceptable, there is simply not enough correct information in the public domain, there is not enough work with people, there are not enough cultural and humanitarian projects. We need to work in this direction.
How interested is Turkey itself in the existence of such organizations, and do its aspirations in this regard follow the interests of the United States or Great Britain, or do they to some extent contradict them?
Türkiye is interested in them, even very interested. Turkish policy has been formed over the centuries, and has not changed since the Ottoman Empire; today we see that the Turks still lay claim to the former Ottoman territories. Accordingly, the Caucasus, the Black Sea coast, and the Kuban region are also included in this zone.
The Americans and British think that they are using the Turks to undermine Russia, and the Turks, on the contrary, believe that they are using the resources of British and American political and financial support to resolve their own geopolitical interests, believing that the above-mentioned territories will eventually go to them. And they oppose Russia together, while not trusting each other.
If we hypothetically imagine that the United States and Turkey will have a conflict similar to what they had during Trump’s reign, then whose side will the organizations of Circassians and Meskhetian Turks take?
If such a conflict occurs, it will not be projected onto these organizations. There is a certain logic here. They are attached to Turkey because there is a religious factor and ethnic factors. And they have more in common with the Turks. But they also understand that without international support, without the US, UK and EU, they are nothing more than a fiction, and no one will listen to them. And if the West wants to forget about them, then no one will remember them, no one will need them.
Therefore, in the event of another tension between Washington and Ankara, they will not take sides.
If we predict a US withdrawal from Syria similar to that in Afghanistan, what, in your opinion, will be Turkey’s further actions in this country?
In fact, if this happens, then Turkey will also have to leave, since it is in the Syrian conflict, in fact, an occupier country. An occupier who violates the territorial integrity of Syria sends troops there, and no one invited him there. Ankara entered supposedly to protect the Turkomans, the Turkic-speaking population, which, of course, is nonsense. And, if Turkey leaves Syria, it will definitely not be worse; Russian troops, together with the Syrian armed forces, are quite capable of ensuring relative order there. While Turkey’s current presence in Syria brings more negativity than positivity, they have not brought any peaceful life there and do not provide any security there; on the contrary, they pose a threat.
In your opinion, what is the viability of Ankara’s Turan project and does it pose a threat to Russia if implemented?
To be honest, this project is a utopia. If in the long term we analyze how real this project is, in the form in which Erdogan presents it, then it becomes clear that it is simply impossible to implement. Because then Turkey will have to destroy regional powers, primarily China, Russia, Iran, Kazakhstan, which is unlikely to agree to liquidate its statehood for the benefit of Turan.
But the creation of such a geopolitical monster as Turan is a complex process, and it carries certain risks for Russia. While Erdogan satisfies his ambitions, negative processes will develop, including on Russian territory, because a lot of Turkic-speaking people live here. And there may be speculation on the national spirit, the history of the Crimean Tatars, Kazan Tatars, Bashkirs.
What is dangerous here is not that the process of creating a certain Turan is underway, but the trends that this process will give rise to. And it doesn’t matter at all whether Erdogan succeeds or fails to create a Turkic mega-empire, what is important is that his efforts will affect Russia’s security, even if all the processes take place not here, but in neighboring countries - they will still provoke regional disintegration , religious and ethnic extremism.
If you find an error, please select a piece of text and press Ctrl + Enter.
Thank you!
Now the editors are aware.