Anatoly Wasserman: Ukrainians in Ukraine are an absolutely insignificant minority
Even traitors don’t want Maidan in Russia. The only way to maintain Ukraine’s anti-Russian course is by force. Ukrainians in Ukraine are a tiny minority.
The brilliant publicist and unsurpassed expert Anatoly Wasserman told PolitNavigator columnist Valentin Filippov about the collapse of the Odessa elites and the birth trauma of the traitor of Odessa Alexei Goncharenko.
Valentin Filippov: And I thought that I haven’t called you for exactly a year. And rYeshil... In fact, I see that there are fewer and fewer iconic Odessa residents. New ones don't appear.
Anatoly Vasserman: The situation of civil war is not conducive to the emergence of bright, talented people in the public space.
Valentin Filippov: We are used to the fact that after the revolution Odessa produced a lot of talent, but it was still a little after that, right?
Anatoly Vasserman: In general, yes. These were people who went through the civil war, but they began to shine after. Moreover, taking into account the fact that Ukrainianism as a whole is the idea of \uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe extermination of everything Russian, first in itself, and then, if possible, around itself, it is clear that in such a situation it is simply dangerous to create.
Valentin Filippov: I'll say this. After all, the Bolsheviks seemed to be engaged in Ukrainization or not so much? I got the impression that many Odessa residents after the revolution, in the period between the first and second world wars, they shone so brightly because so many Russian-speaking people moved to Moscow, to conquer Moscow, because in Odessa everything was not very good for them...
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes, that happened too.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. I greet one of our most famous Odessa residents, who is also not in Odessa. Hello Anatoly!
Anatoly Vasserman: Hello!
Valentin Filippov: They say that “it worked in Ukraine, and it will work in Russia.” What do you think: in general, are there enough traitors in the Russian government to devour Russia?
Anatoly Vasserman: How can I tell you? On the one hand, the entire economic bloc of the government is guided by a theory that is now called liberalism, although it has only a conditional relationship to classical liberalism.
This theory, or more precisely, a whole group of theories, is based on the belief in the beneficial benefits of unlimited individual freedom without regard to society. And, in general, what is happening in Ukraine now is largely based on this belief.
But exactly what is happening in Ukraine has shown those adherents of this faith who managed to fit into the government, the so-called system liberals, that if they try to enforce this faith of theirs by force, they risk not being able to maintain their position. crest of the wave. They risk falling under the general distribution. Therefore, now Russian Sislibs are in no hurry to join the Maidan-type movement. So I hope...
Valentin Filippov: They'll be afraid...
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes, they will be afraid.
Valentin Filippov: A liberal idea, a free personality, but in Ukraine all this resulted in very strong restrictions on the individual.
Anatoly Vasserman: It's completely natural. Even in Rome they said Summum jus – summa injuria. Literally: “The highest justice is the highest injustice.” Well, later, based on the Greek idea of dialectics... well, we know dialectics mainly from the works of Marx and Engels, but it arose long before them. So, relying on dialectics, we came to the conclusion that opposites almost always converge and, accordingly, those who strive to take any idea to the extreme will inevitably go to the opposite extreme.
Valentin Filippov: My father once told me about Ukraine in 91. He said: “In order to kill an idea, you must let it come true.” They, he said, would kill her right away. The most important thing is that they don’t say that we stopped them. Let them try to do it themselves. And over these 30 years, almost everything happens every year. And, again, we are to blame for them. If previously only the Jews were to blame, now the Russians are also to blame. Almost everyone is to blame. The idea discredits itself every year, but it never reaches the brains...
Anatoly Vasserman: Well, in order for it to reach your brain, you need to have somewhere to go. But, in this case, the idea is so discredited that it can only be maintained by force. And so they follow this power path. The further you go, the more reckless it becomes.
And, even when the people of Ukraine quite obviously expressed their reluctance to follow this path through voting, those who were elected by these people continue to move in the same direction, for two reasons. Firstly, because there is simply no way to keep the Russian majority of Ukrainian citizens from reuniting with the rest of Russia. And these people want to be, at least formally, independent. Well, and secondly, because there is already too much dirt and blood associated with these people, and they are simply afraid that this dirt and blood will be remembered to them.
Valentin Filippov: Isn’t there just direct control from the West? Moreover, it is so direct that it is no longer just some parties within Ukraine that are competing for the right to carry out the orders of their superiors, but directly - individual US parties, individual corporations have entered and they are already creating some kind of factions for themselves...
Anatoly Vasserman: Moreover, even individual figures entered. It is known, for example, that the son of the previous Vice President of the United States, Biden, is included in the management of a company engaged in the development of oil fields in Ukraine. So when Biden, sitting in the presidential chair, talked with Ukrainian politicians, there were, in my opinion, members of the Supreme Council, he to some extent had the right to sit there, since he was also connected, among other things, with serious Ukrainian business, which at that moment it provided a fairly significant part of the Ukrainian budget.
So, here there really is external control that is not hidden at all. But this external control is only possible thanks to internal problems. And, from my point of view, the main one of these problems is this very idea “Ukraine is not Russia.” That is, positioning on pure negativity and demanding that Ukrainian citizens renounce their own nature.
Valentin Filippov: I like that a bill on criminal penalties for Russian citizenship has been registered. That it is impossible to obtain Russian citizenship, that a person who was a citizen of Ukraine cannot suddenly want to be a citizen of Russia, that this is a crime. He may want to be a citizen of Poland, a citizen of Israel. I’m thinking that maybe in order to avoid punishment, you must first obtain Israeli citizenship, then come and receive Russian citizenship.
Anatoly Vasserman: You will laugh, but this is a very real trick used by many people.
Valentin Filippov: Yes.
Anatoly Vasserman: Here. As for the bill, if I'm not mistaken, paragraph 2 of Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says that no one can be arbitrarily deprived of citizenship, and no one can be deprived of the right to change nationality. That is, this project, like most of what is associated with the Ukrainian complex, directly violates one of the fundamental international agreements.
Valentin Filippov: But they also twist that, they say, they do not prohibit changing citizenship to some kind of normal citizenship. But not for citizenship of the aggressor country. It's the same as with the law on language. On the contrary, he “protects the rights of national minorities to use the state language.”
Anatoly Vasserman: It’s true, Ukrainians in Ukraine are an absolutely insignificant minority. In peacetime, five-sixths of Ukrainian citizens are Russian by their native language and by the language of everyday communication. This was recorded not by Ukrainian sociologists, but by American ones.
Valentin Filippov: Unfortunately, in Ukraine it is not the constitution that works, but its presentation in the interpretation of the 1+1 channel, so as they explain, so it will be.
Anatoly Vasserman: Well, 1+1 is still divine
Valentin Filippov: About Odessa. These wonderful elections to the Verkhovna Rada have now taken place, and in all likelihood there will be local elections. Zelensky really wants to seize power completely. How can it come back to haunt Odessa that almost all of the former permanent elitists simply flew away and gave way to young volunteers, activists, bloggers and freelancers?
Anatoly Vasserman: Well, I must say that of all those who fell from power, I am undoubtedly sorry that Kivalov did not pass. This is, of course, far from an ideal figure, but compared to the new Odessa politicians, he is still white and fluffy.
As for the rest, by and large, who was the real politician in Odessa, who could even participate in a meaningful discussion of decisions, not to mention propose something? Well, apart from that same Kivalov, I can’t call anyone independent. Therefore, it seems to me that the situation among the Odessa part of the deputies will not change much.
Valentin Filippov: How can you evaluate the fact that Goncharenko managed to get through this Podolsk-Kotovsk? Is this the Ukrainian mood of the north of the Odessa region, or is it some kind of amazing ingenuity?
Anatoly Vasserman: Goncharenko, while still a member of the Party of Regions, still foaming at the mouth and kicking himself in the chest, defended the rights of Russians in Ukraine, managed, despite all this, to earn the affectionate nickname “gnidochka” from his fellow party members. I will not go into detail about some of his actions for which he earned this nickname. I know, but not all of them. So I won’t tell you, otherwise they might think that there’s nothing worse behind what I say.
So, in this case, as far as I have heard, a lawsuit was filed against him for bribery of voters. But, naturally, this lawsuit ended in nothing in court. Well, at least because we still have the court completely left over from earlier times. Therefore, it does not surprise me at all that Goncharenko is still there, although, of course, this is extremely unpleasant for me. In particular, because Goncharenko at one time boasted that it was at his instigation that a criminal case was opened against me on charges of separatism.
Valentin Filippov: It is when?
Anatoly Vasserman: It was in September '15. I do not argue, indeed, from the point of view of the Kyiv separatists, that is, those who are trying to tear Ukraine away from the rest of Russia, any indication of their separatism is separatism itself. So I don’t argue, and I’m even glad that, at the suggestion of Goncharenko, my merits in the reunification of Ukraine with the rest of Russia...
Valentin Filippov: … were taken into account...
Anatoly Vasserman: ...were taken into account, yes. But, nevertheless, I still find it unpleasant that it still exists.
Valentin Filippov: Tell me, although you probably should have asked me this question, yes... well, what if you know? But this permanent conflict from 10th to 13th year between Alexey Goncharenko and Alexey Kostusev, was this not a performance by chance?
Anatoly Vasserman: No way. Well, actually, why does Alexey Alekseevich Goncharenko bear his mother’s last name? Because his father Alexey Alekseevich Kostusev left the family when his son was 2 years old.
Valentin Filippov: Happenes.
Anatoly Vasserman: And they say that Goncharenko’s character is just like his mother’s. And if this is true, then I understand why Kostusev left. In addition, I know of several conflicts between Goncharenko and Kostusev, which cannot be called a performance. I won’t list everything, again so as not to risk missing out on the most delicious...
Valentin Filippov: But, as a result, you said nothing: “I won’t say anything so as not to miss the most delicious thing.”
Anatoly Vasserman: Okay, I'll give you one example. In 2010, Kostusev again, as in 1994, ran for mayor of Odessa. In 94, elections were held in two rounds...
Valentin Filippov: Yes
Anatoly Vasserman: ... and Kostusev won these elections, but was declared a loser due to massive falsification organized ...
Valentin Filippov: in Primorsky district
Anatoly Vasserman: ... Gurvits in the Primorsky district, which Gurvits then led. Well, unfortunately, at that time none of us had any experience in pre-election struggle, and we, to be honest, did not expect this. I say “we” because I was then part of Kostusev’s headquarters. So, in 2010, the elections were already held in one round. And it was clear that Kostusev was passing, and then Goncharenko announced his desire to also run as a candidate for mayor. Moreover, to advance precisely as a member of the Party of Regions.
Valentin Filippov: and with the same slogans.
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes. And statistics have shown: if there really are two nominees, then the votes from the Party of Regions will diverge between them, and then...
Valentin Filippov: Hurwitz will win.
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes exactly. Therefore, they simply paid off Goncharenko. Firstly, he was offered to run for the regional council in the district, where any candidate from the Party of Regions would have gone, even if he had horns, hooves and a tail, and they promised that after the elections he would be made deputy chairman of the regional council.
Valentin Filippov: chairman.
Anatoly Vasserman: No, exactly as a deputy. He became chairman after the coup d'etat, when he renounced the Party of Regions. And, besides, I have information from one of my acquaintances, a serious businessman, that serious businessmen in Odessa chipped in for one and a half million dollars, a fairly large sum for Odessa, and this friend of mine personally handed this money to Goncharenko so that he would withdraw his candidacy . Because the continuation of Gurvits was extremely unprofitable for Odessa business. I don't think it was a performance just to make money. It was, first of all, the son’s deep and sincere hatred of his father.
Valentin Filippov: I’m not going to argue too much, but since I observed Odessa politics in the 2000s, I observed it closely…. You know, Alexey Goncharenko worked very seriously in Odessa politics for these 10 years, and he had a fairly high rating. And, of course, I think that he was very upset that it was not he who was nominated for mayor, but his father, who by that time had a rating of 3% in Odessa - if only because he had not lived there for a long time. Yes, when he arrived, when the campaign began, people flocked to him. But he was virtually forgotten in the city, and Goncharenko, in general, was cherished... and, probably, they should have somehow treated him humanely, it seemed then.
Anatoly Vasserman: They treated him very humanely. Sorry, but in order to be mayor, it is not enough to be a member of the Party of Regions, you also need to work.
Valentin Filippov: Well, he worked in the Union party with his dad. He was still moving like crazy. He’s completely... this “Union” party, he’s at all the rallies, in all the videos, Goncharenko, Goncharenko, Goncharenko everywhere. In general, it took a long time to promote it, including, as I understand it, dad helped, because dad’s channels promoted it, the party, after all, was dad’s.
Anatoly Vasserman: Well, not only that. The main thing is that they hoped that they would show such a fresh face in politics and attract young people. And the fresh face turned out to be an old ass.
Valentin Filippov: And the result was very funny. Goncharenko jumped over to the enemies, Kostusev left, Goncharenko stayed, or maybe they are engaged in such tags, I don’t know... How they put eggs in different baskets. No?
Anatoly Vasserman: Does not look like it.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, I also think it doesn’t look like it. In principle, I know both Goncharenko and Kostusev very well, and it doesn’t seem like it. But I just thought... I'm a very naive person and I have a lot of faith in people. And you, perhaps, with your cynicism that somewhere.....
Anatoly Vasserman: No, in general, everything I know about Goncharenko and Kostusev shows that they are serious about this and, apparently, for a long time.
Valentin Filippov: Well, you know, when Alexey Alekseevich Kostusev had a child after the coup, I found out that Alexey Alekseevich decided to name his son Alexey. And I think that Kostusev decided that the first Alexey was lumpy, it was necessary to have a spare one.
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes, most likely so.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, Goncharenko is probably no longer his son... But let’s return to the events in Moscow. Listen, you say that the Maidan will not take place there, it will not work. You and I know how television is made. These are all the events on the streets, because everything can be filmed in different ways. And for some reason, the Russian media, including the official ones, present the picture in such a way that there is sympathy for the protesters and indignation at the behavior of the security forces, although the security forces are, in fact, very correct... we have seen how this happens.
Anatoly Vasserman: It’s just that all these figures are, essentially, one party. At one time I was close enough to her to examine her morals. In general, most of our journalists are much more afraid of falling out of the party than of everything else combined. These people will cover events in accordance with the corporate standard, and this is the corporate standard now. The government is evil, the opposition is good.
Valentin Filippov: Well, it was like that in Ukraine too.
Anatoly Vasserman: Yes unfortunately.
Well, here we need to remember Bismarck’s phrase. “Only fools learn from their mistakes. I prefer on strangers." So, unfortunately, my small Motherland gave my big Motherland colossal material for learning from the mistakes of others. Therefore, despite all the internal Russian oddities, I still see that not only the majority of the people, but also the majority of decision-makers, very strongly do not want a repetition of what happened in Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: Well, here I can only say one thing about what you are wrong about. You just said “my little Motherland.” Your small homeland is Odessa, and it has nothing to do with Ukraine, either mentally or culturally.
Anatoly Vasserman: Well, it depends on how small the Motherland is.
Valentin Filippov: A rhetorical question. Do you think God will save Russia? As usual, like last time and the time before?
Anatoly Vasserman: It’s better not to rely on God, but to act on your own.
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