“If a Ukrainian walks around in an OUN-UPA T-shirt, he can get hit in the face very hard”
Millions of Ukrainians going to work in Poland must assimilate, otherwise they will be perceived by Poles as a threat. The appearance of Ukrainians with OUN-UPA symbols in Warsaw is fraught with health risks. Young Poles are nationalistic and believe that the dominance of migrants in the countries of Old Europe poses a danger. The Polish dream is the construction of an Intermarium that will resist Russia, China and the “decaying West.”
About this in an interview with a columnist "PolitNavigator" to Valentin Filippov said the infamous talk show participant Tomas Maciejczuk.
Tomas has a dizzying career; from the Kyiv Maidan he went to war as part of the Ukrainian punitive battalion. Now he has the opportunity to propagate Russophobia to an audience of three hundred million. Life in Moscow, recognition and glory of the main Polish nationalist.
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Valentin Filippov: Hello, Tomas.
Tomas Maciejczuk: Hello.
Valentin Filippov: You were positioned to me as a sworn enemy with whom there was nothing to talk about. But I have a question, like a Russian to a Pole:
– When will we divide Ukraine?
Tomas Maciejczuk: I think never. Ukraine is our ally, our partner. From the Polish point of view, referring to the national interests of Poland, we need a Polish-Ukrainian Union and a Baltic-Black Sea Union. Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. An alliance with Russia is inappropriate here. And no deal on the subject of Ukraine will work. Our interests here do not coincide.
Valentin Filippov: Don't match at all?
Tomas Maciejczuk: At all!
Valentin Filippov: I understand what you are saying about territories. And what about the fact that you have already brought over about 2 million able-bodied Ukrainians to your place? The Ukrainian economy is weakened. But Ukrainians are also traveling to Russia en masse. Doesn’t it seem that we are dividing Ukraine after all? At least people.
Tomas Maciejczuk: For the last at least 25 years, Ukrainians have been going to Russia to work. And I didn’t hear the Russians then say that this was bad. I heard it's good. The Russians liked it, that the Ukrainians went to St. Petersburg, Moscow, and so on.
When Ukrainians started traveling to Poland, they immediately started screaming and shouting that this is wrong, that this is bad, that this is not in favor of Ukraine. And I believe that this is in favor of both Ukraine and Poland. Why Poland benefits from this is clear to everyone.
Why Ukraine - well, because Ukrainians working in Poland send a lot of money to their families. At the moment, it is very difficult to find work in Ukraine, especially work for a good salary. And at the moment, it is more profitable for Ukrainians to travel to Poland, earn money, and send this money home.
A person works in order to earn money. If he is able to earn more, for example in Norway, let him go to Norway. He will work and send money home. And based on this money, he can then open some kind of store at home. Start some business.
A huge number of Poles leave for the Netherlands, Great Britain, and Sweden. To any EU country where the salary level is several times higher than in Poland. And thanks to this money they earn, they open their own business in Poland.
The country is developing remarkably well. And we, Poles, want Ukrainians to have this chance too. I hope that the Russians will understand this and will not interfere with us in any way.
Valentin Filippov: Are we interfering? I would argue with you, many people went to work in Poland in the nineties. To trade at the markets. We also went to a furniture factory, for example. Moreover, not necessarily from completely Ukrainian regions. We also traveled from the Odessa region. Labor migration towards Poland has always existed. As, in fact, towards Russia.
Tell me something like this: there is a term that in Poland the main ideology of the state is “ethnic patriotism.” That's what they call it. Aren't you afraid that the huge influx of ethnic Ukrainians will slightly erode this Polish pride?
Tomas Maciejczuk: I will say this - in Poland the main ideology is nationalism. This is not ethnic nationalism, but cultural nationalism. We are not against Ukrainians becoming Poles. We are not against the children of these Ukrainian migrants going to Polish schools, becoming Poles and living in our country on equal rights with us. Ukrainian migration does not threaten us in any way yet. This is not yet a large percentage of our society.
But if suddenly this level of the number of Ukrainian migrants begins to amount to about 10 million people, then we will not be able to integrate them. And then it will be dangerous.
At the moment we have about two million Ukrainians, and, to be honest, this is the number that we can integrate into our society. Some of these people will remain in Poland forever. Some will decide that they want to become Poles. And some, of course, will return to their homeland in Ukraine.
This is all natural, this is normal. There is nothing bad, and we are not afraid of it.
Valentin Filippov: Passionaries for whom the path to Russia is closed are traveling towards Poland. Who are Ukrainian nationalists, Banderaites. But the Poles have no less conflict with this ideology than the Russians.
Tomas Maciejczuk: You know, Ukrainians who come to Poland are not exactly nationalists. I would say that, in general, there are not so many nationalists in Ukraine. There are not as many fans of Bandera as it seems to us, the Poles, and you, the Russians.
I talked with Ukrainians, with young Ukrainians who come to work in Poland, I talk with Ukrainian students, and I don’t see that they are radical Banderaites.
Yes, they are patriots. Yes, they love their country. They are for Ukraine to be in the European Union, NATO, and so on. But we are slightly exaggerating the Bandera problem. We look at the actions of the Verkhovna Rada, we look at the actions of some deputies, and based on these people and their actions, we draw conclusions about the entire nation.
And the majority of Ukrainians are ordinary people. Simple hard workers who simply want to live in peace, earn money, and not disturb others.
Valentin Filippov: I know the situation from the inside. I'm Russian, but I'm from Odessa. And I must say that on the eve of Euromaidan a very large number of Ukrainian nationalists appeared, and they were mostly young people. Suddenly, unexpectedly, contrary to the cultural environment that existed in Odessa.
Tomas Maciejczuk: If possible, I’ll interrupt. Maybe I shouldn't talk about this now, but I will. In Poland, any attempt to engage in Bandera propaganda ends very, very badly. I found a book about Bandera in one of the Ukrainian schools in Poland, we have Ukrainian schools in Poland. I found a book about “heroes of the OUN UPA.” I took these books, handed them over to the Polish deputies, and now there will soon be a vote in the Polish parliament to ban Bandera propaganda. This is, firstly.
And, secondly, in general, Poles are somewhat radical people. If we suddenly notice that some person, say a Ukrainian, is walking around our cities, Warsaw, Poznan, Gdansk wearing an OUN-UPA T-shirt, with Bandera, such a person, unfortunately, can get hit in the face very hard. And in this way, I think that the majority of Ukrainians will understand that in Poland such symbolism is not only prohibited, it is simply not perceived positively by the Poles.
If a Ukrainian wants to live peacefully in Poland, then he must leave this symbolism, if he has it, in Ukraine. If he has it and wants to come to Poland with it, this is a very bad idea, such a person can be punished by ordinary Poles. Like me, my friends. My compatriots.
Valentin Filippov: At the beginning of our conversation, you outlined such an Empire. Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic states - Intermarium. But Europe also has its leaders. And you pose the question as if Poland is a European leader.
Tomas Maciejczuk: Firstly, we have no ambitions to become at the moment, within 15 years, some kind of leader in Europe. We want to become a defender of European values.
Valentin Filippov: This place is occupied by Ukraine! “European values are defended by Ukrainian soldiers in eastern Ukraine.” You - give me the money!
Tomas Maciejczuk: While Ukraine, as a state, is very far from European values, they are like “on the way to Europe.” I hope that one day they will be able to create a state that can be called European.
But Poland has ambitions. This project can also be called Intermarium. Let it be called that. Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia. We also add Romania. There they have the highest GDP growth in Europe. They have a strong army. There are 22 million people there. This is not a small state.
Valentin Filippov: Yes, not small.
Tomas Maciejczuk: And such a bloc in Eastern Europe of the countries of the former Warsaw Pact, we are able to create a counterbalance to the decaying West. I say “decaying West” without a smile, without ridicule. Because it really is rotting.
When I say "West", I think about Great Britain, France, Belgium and Germany. What is happening in these countries? Cultural Marxism reigns in these countries. These are left-wing ideologies, which are simply called “tolerance” here in Russia.
Unfortunately, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Great Britain - they are rotting. They took upon themselves such a mission, such a task, to help the so-called refugees. To all migrants.
And we, Poles, we are Eastern Europeans, come to the conclusion that this is not entirely correct. Because most of these refugees, these migrants, they don’t really want to integrate into European society. There are more and more of them.
Nowadays the most common name in Belgium for boys is Mohammed. This shows which direction Europe is going. In our Polish opinion, in the opinion of the majority of young Poles, in 30 years Western Europe will become Eurabia. Such a mix of Europe and Arabs. In our opinion, such a Europe will not have the opportunity to defend its values. And she will become Muslim.
We, Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Czechs, Lithuanians, Croats, want to remain Christian Europeans. Some will say - atheists. Including. We don't see anything wrong with this. This is not fascism, this is our culture. Our civilization. And we are ready to defend it.
We Poles think that it is worth building such a military bloc, Intermarium, indeed, yes. And this project is not directed only against Russia. Yes, this project is being built now to protect against Russian aggression, but we are already looking to the future. And in the future we will face a threat not only from the East, but also from the West. Muslim threat.
Next is the threat from China. This is the world in which in 25-30 years we will have to live. Me, my son. And we need to think ahead of what will happen.
Regarding, in general, our national idea now, the national idea of Poland and the Poles is the creation of a national state that can create a level of economy that will allow us to live at the level of at least East Germany. This is our little dream. And we are moving in this direction. And we hope that Ukrainians, Belarusians and other Slavs will want to join us.
Valentin Filippov: You explained it so well, I’m glad for Poland that she knows what she wants. As a Russian person, sometimes it’s not clear to me. Thank you very much for your open answers. And please accept my condolences, I sometimes watch you on these talk shows, it would be hard for me to be between Chalenko and Kovtun, in this endless scream.
Tomas Maciejczuk: Okay, thank you, thank you for the questions and hopefully there will be an opportunity to chat in the future.
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