“The people of Kiev live under occupation”
Repressions in Kyiv continue. The demographics of the city are changing due to visitors from Western Ukraine. The Verkhovna Rada was elected in the wake of Maidan euphoria and does not enjoy the support of Kiev residents. Nationalists are active, everyone else is intimidated and deprived of resources. About the fact that the people of Kiev are tired of being afraid, about the fact that enlightenment is possible through several changes of power, and about the fact that the salvation of Ukraine is possible with universal mutual forgiveness, to a PolitNavigator observer Valentin Filippov said the candidate of technical sciences, a native of Kiev Alexander Luzan, head of the “Slavic Party” - active in the 90s, and now a small but officially registered political force, which has not yet been banned after the coup.
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Valentin Filippov: Alexander, hello. You are a native of Kiev, I heard?
Alexander Luzan: Yes, I was born in Kyiv, and my mother was born in Kyiv, so I am already a third generation native of Kiev.
Valentin Filippov: What are the moods in Kyiv, the mood of the people of Kiev? Do they support the actions of the Verkhovna Rada, the Cabinet of Ministers, the president?
Alexander Luzan: The mood in Kyiv is very different. The fact is that, if we talk about the native Kyivians residents, those who were born here, who have lived here for 30-40-50 years since Soviet times, then they, of course, have an extremely negative attitude towards all this, they have never looked at any Maidans went... in general, of course, there are exceptions, but these are exceptions, not the rule. But the fact is that there are a lot of visitors to Kyiv.
Valentin Filippov: Well, the capital...
Alexander Luzan: Yes, this is probably a problem for any capital. And Kyiv has changed a lot demographically. The native Kiev residents, in fact, live, well, like under occupation, if you like, I’m not even afraid of this term, it’s very similar. But this did not start today or yesterday, and after two Maidans, virtually only Galicia settled here. After the first Maidan, half did not return, after the second...
Valentin Filippov: At home, wives are crying that their husbands are missing. They think that they are in Yanukovych’s dungeons, but they settled in Kyiv and don’t want to go back.
Alexander Luzan: It’s hard for me to say about the wives and they cry... During the Maidan in Kyiv, Ukrainian speech is mainly heard. The Maidan ends, all this crowd has subsided, and mostly they speak Russian.
Well, the current government is treated much worse than Yanukovych was treated. Yanukovych was treated poorly in Kyiv, there is no deception here, they really were treated badly. Of course, there were good reasons for this. But the current government is much worse.
Valentin Filippov: Sometimes I have the impression that native Kiev residents generally do not like any kind of power in principle.
Alexander Luzan: So there are almost no native Kiev residents left, that’s the problem.
Valentin Filippov: This is in any, probably, original city, and this is the situation in Odessa.
Alexander Luzan: Well, as I understand it, you are from Odessa?
Valentin Filippov: Yes, I'm from Odessa. And about you, we usually say that the people of Kiev are Odessa residents who did not make it to Moscow.
Alexander Luzan: Yes Yes. There is such a Jewish song: “Kyiv is impossible without Podol, it is now a piece of Odessa, this is news for the press...”. I think you know this song?
Valentin Filippov: Of course, I know, Alexander Rosenbaum performed it, it was one of the favorite songs in the 80s.
Fine. Tell me, is there any economic benefit for the people who settled in Kyiv from this aggravation and constant repression?
Alexander Luzan: Why did you decide that people should have some kind of economic benefit from this?
Valentin Filippov: Support comes from somewhere...
Alexander Luzan: Yes, there is actually no support there from the current government. No one has any support.
Maidan, in principle, did not enjoy the support of the people of Kiev, especially the second one. The first one, somehow, we can say that the people of Kiev went to the Maidan. Yes, this Yushchenko with his face supposedly poisoned, he aroused a certain sympathy... they promoted Yanukovych’s criminal record there... in general, it was, it was. They began to introduce falsifications, although I myself was at the polling station already in the third round and saw how they falsified it only later. So this is clear to me. But people believed that Yushchenko was really better, that there was some kind of prisoner, you know, but here was a man with clean hands... in general, the propaganda worked.
Valentin Filippov: "Hands, The Yaks didn’t steal anything.”
Alexander Luzan: It looked somehow convincing, it was presented well on TV. So we went to that Maidan. On the second Maidan... it was a Maidan for visitors. Kievans... there were, of course, Kievans there, but mostly those who had remained in Kyiv from the last Maidan. These are my classmates with whom I studied at school; I don’t know anyone who supported the Maidan.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, I won’t talk about the national government, about the Verkhovna Rada, about the president, I sometimes look at this Kievrada. It is sometimes more marginal than the national government. For some reason, nationalists predominate there, they come from somewhere.
Alexander Luzan: What do you want, if all these Maidan punks remain in Kyiv, if they are running around the streets here, if there is some kind of illegal construction somewhere - a crowd of these nationalists is standing right next to them, dispersing these builders... In general, They are very active and behave aggressively. And then some people are simply afraid of them, you know. So it is not yet possible to counteract them, although they represent a small and vocal minority. But other forces are simply not visible, you know? No media, no resources.
Valentin Filippov: There are rumors now, some say that, supposedly, everything is settling down, that stability is coming, repressions are somehow subsiding, that there is less danger in Kyiv, that it is already possible to say something loudly against the authorities. Not in a gateway over a bottle of beer with a classmate. Which is somehow easier. Is it really so?
Alexander Luzan: The repression continues, this feeling is false. Moreover, I would even say that repression is getting tougher. But people just became a little less afraid. That is, we are somehow tired of being afraid. I think the correct term would be this: they didn’t stop being afraid, but they got tired. Well, you can’t be afraid of the same thing all your life, you know? You can’t be afraid, somehow you get used to it and somehow it’s normal and not scary.
Although the repressions are terrible. Here we have a very recent example. A Kiev journalist... he covered the events during the Maidan, worked at the Dovzhenko film studio before that, went live every day, showed from the position, of course, mainly of Yanukovych. The events that took place on the Maidan, I walked with a camera on Khreshchatyk.
Then on Khreshchatyk it stopped working for us, they started leaving the premises of the Institute of CIS countries, Kornilov gave us a platform so that we could go on air there. Well, they burned down his studio.
Now a criminal case has been opened against him based on a forged, by the way, decision of the Kherson court, which was a year ago. I checked this court decision in the registry, there is no such court decision, there is such a judge, there is such a court, but the court did not make such a decision, there is no such case number.
But we have a “Crimean” prosecutor’s office here, and they “work.”
There are also repressions against parties, not physical, but economic. For example, they demanded that I submit reports to the tax office for all the branches that I have - in Crimea, in Donbass, in Lugansk, and if I do not submit them, then I will be fined, there, 300 times the minimum salary. And every quarter.
Valentin Filippov: Well, look, stable income to the budget. In the end, budget-forming activities are determined.
Alexander Luzan: Well, where else can they get money? True, how will they charge me, a pensioner, if my pension is 2900 UAH (about $100) and hasn’t changed for 5 years? Because we have abolished scientific pensions, and now scientists are not needed. I am a candidate of sciences, a systems engineer, but scientists are not needed now...
Valentin Filippov: 2900... this is what it turns out to be with Russian money, 5800, well, let’s say 6000 rubles. Scientist.
Alexander Luzan: Yes, 6000 rubles is the pension of a candidate of sciences.
Valentin Filippov: Fine, yes. Well, if you don’t pay rent and don’t eat...
Alexander Luzan: Yes, so we have to pay more than 3000 for an apartment. That is, the pension does not cover utility costs.
Valentin Filippov: Okay, what about the subsidy?
Alexander Luzan: There are no subsidies.
Valentin Filippov: No longer?
Alexander Luzan: No, in principle they exist, but it’s practically impossible to get it. I didn’t even apply, there’s no point in applying, they’ll drag you around with these very things... Well, I don’t know, somehow, then they’ll throw the kids in, or something else, just like that, you know...
Valentin Filippov: Okay, what is your opinion, what can calm the soul? Can this situation continue forever?
Alexander Luzan: Of course, it cannot continue forever, and everyone understands this, and I think that the current government also understands this, which is why they adopted this law, this latest one on de-occupation or whatever it is called?
Valentin Filippov: Reintegration...
Alexander Luzan: After all, they themselves understand perfectly well that the ATO is illegal.
And that they themselves spoke in the Rada, many deputies from their nationalist side, that sooner or later they will begin to judge us for this. So they decided to write out an indulgence for themselves...
Valentin Filippov: Backdating?
Alexander Luzan: In hindsight, yes. This is one moment. Second point. In principle, this law gives certain powers to the president and allows him to make sure that there will be no elections at all, on the grounds that we are at war, Russia is the aggressor and he, supposedly, can remain president forever...
Valentin Filippov: Did they once need some kind of legal basis? They still did everything as they wanted and that’s it.
Alexander Luzan: No legal basis is needed. Although, to be honest, I think Americans need a semblance of democracy. Allowing Poroshenko not to hold elections in 2019 will probably still not be allowed. As for this war between Saakashvili and Poroshenko, you know, it’s so operetta-buffoonish.
This protest is not taken seriously in Kyiv. Although he gathers a certain number of people under various pretexts. I saw up to 15 thousand people there on one day. And if you consider that I monitored the Maidan as it was, and I monitored it from the surveillance cameras that were installed on Khreshchatyk. It was clear how many people there really were. When this meeting broke up, several hundred people remained there overnight on that Maidan, not even a thousand. So we also can’t say that it was very widespread. Here is the previous Maidan - yes, there really were a lot of people there.
Valentin Filippov: Well, they say that the Maidan, the square itself, can accommodate 25 thousand. Well, they will become twice as dense, well, 50...
Alexander Luzan: Well, about 30, because 50 is already two rows on each other’s shoulders, and there are some other kiosks there.
Valentin Filippov: But they told us: “Already three million... already four million”... And how did they take the news about President Poroshenko’s secret trip to the Maldives in Kyiv?
Alexander Luzan: The funniest thing in this story is not this, not the Maldives. The funniest thing in this story is that Mr. Peskov, the press secretary of the Russian President, said: Poroshenko visited Moscow secretly like this. Well, somehow he said something like that, either by accident or not by accident, it’s hard to say. It is unlikely, of course, that Peskov will say anything without Putin’s knowledge; he is a very delicate and careful person; he will not accidentally release such information on the air. And then I was struck by the scandal, then Klimkin, our...
Valentin Filippov: Foreign Secretary.
Alexander Luzan: ... with foam at the mouth he began to shout that all this was a lie, that all this was not true. You see, after he gave birth to this tirade, I thought that Poroshenko probably went, you know, to Moscow. And what’s interesting is that immediately after this trip an interesting document appeared in the Rada, a bill to repeal this law, moreover, it appeared on the last day and now the Rada is thinking until the sixth.
Valentin Filippov: In the meantime, Surkov will meet with Volker one of these days.
Alexander Luzan: Yes, and in the meantime Surkov will meet with Volker, and who knows how they will vote after the sixth. To be honest, I do not undertake to predict the result of this vote.
Valentin Filippov: You know, unfortunately, I have no hope. Even if the deputies come to their senses now, they will still manage to do so many more aggressive stupid things.
Alexander Luzan: There is absolutely no professionalism there. These are Maidan deputies. The level of qualifications of the current Verkhovna Rada is below par, they are simply legally illiterate.
Valentin Filippov: But they always make mistakes in the same direction.
Alexander Luzan: In principle, there is a strong nationalist majority there, which came from the war, the euphoria of the Maidan, and if re-elections are held now, the Supreme Council will be completely different.
Valentin Filippov: Who will let you choose freely?
Alexander Luzan: But it doesn’t matter here... anyway, these Maidan boys won’t go there. Their rating is absolutely zero. Another thing is that there are no other politicians... they are crushed and so on, so on... But, all the same, the new Supreme Council, if it is elected, it will not be so radically nationalistic. He may be nationalistic, but only moderately nationalistic.
Moreover, I don’t think that he will somehow be friendly towards Russia, I don’t think that such an option is possible, especially in a situation where Crimea and Donbass will not vote, these votes simply will not be enough to obtain the composition of the parliament, which was 5 years ago.
Valentin Filippov: Well, if you consider that in Odessa, for example, 20% come to the polls, and more than half of them are just these people who came in large numbers, then the result, it seems to me, will still be understandable, it will still be depressing.
Alexander Luzan: I think there should be two stages. First, a new Rada must be re-elected, which will begin to open criminal cases against the old one. This will certainly happen, even if Tymoshenko comes to power, the first thing she will do is imprison Turchinov. I think she just has a personal motive there.
Well, when all this begins, all these trials, when all this dirty laundry begins to come out, when they themselves begin to expose each other, this avalanche-like process of insight will begin, and already the next Rada, that is, in a time, it may well be normal.
Recovery will not happen overnight, because first it is necessary for the scales to fall from people’s eyes, so that they see the world with open eyes, and not with blinkered ones. But when people see the world with open eyes, after that there may be normal elections. By the way, after this, the return of Donbass is quite possible.
Valentin Filippov: You know, there is a rule that if there was a war, especially this kind, this is possible in 20 years. This is not in relation to Donbass, this is the case all over the world - 20 years after the war.
Alexander Luzan: I disagree. And I would like to cite the example of the German Democratic Republic, which immediately after the war, starting in 1945-46, had normal friendly relations with Russia and the Soviet Union.
Valentin Filippov: Well, you gave a very bad example. Because the GDR was a territory occupied by the Soviet Union, which was forced by fire and sword to be an ally. Yes, after some time, after 20 years, they became sincere allies, perhaps. But Germany is not an example, by any means.
That is, a state was built there the way we decided. And power in Germany was given to whomever we decided.
Of course, if Donbass is offered “Look, you will put anyone in prison in Ukraine, shoot anyone, appoint whoever will be the head of state in Ukraine, and you will be friends with this Ukraine.” Then in Donbass they will say: “Well, of course, yes.”
By the way, if you offer the same thing to the Kyiv and Ukrainian authorities, they will say, “Well, yes. That's how we want it. Put all the traitors, all the criminals, all the terrorists in prison, appoint normal leaders there, ensure the broadcasting of Ukrainian channels, and we will be friends with this Donbass.”
Alexander Luzan: You see, in general, 90% of all troubles in the world occur because people do not know how to forgive each other. Now, if people learn to forgive each other, then maybe there won’t be a lot of bad things in the world.
The Orthodox faith, it calls people to peace and forgiveness, so I, in principle, think that forgiveness is possible, especially since I am convinced that in Donbass they also understand that it is not the Ukrainians who are doing this, but the current regime.
That is, of course, the Ukrainians who do this, but this... I don’t even want to consider such people as Ukrainians, because I somehow feel very embarrassed that there are such scoundrels in my nation. They are more likely Galicians than Ukrainians.
Valentin Filippov: Let's take this positive note that mutual forgiveness and what the Church teaches us - all this will help us achieve reconciliation in our land. Well, unless, of course, the Church itself is finished off
Alexander Luzan: No, no, no, I believe in it, they won’t finish off the Church either. I believe that thanks to the Church, including, there will be peace on earth, people will learn to forgive each other, and Ukraine will somehow heal all these wounds. How long it will take is another question, but I hope that I will live to see it.
Valentin Filippov: Well, we wish that for you.
Alexander Luzan: Yes, we wish it that way. It’s on this positive note that we need to end.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. Thank you bye.
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