Andrey Babitsky: Ukraine is more like Ichkeria, not Donbass
In Kyiv they like to compare Donbass with Ichkeria, but today's Ukraine has much more in common with the regime of Dzhokhar Dudayev. The collapse of Ukraine, in all areas, is becoming irreversible. About this in an interview with a columnist “PolitNavigator” to Valentin Filippov told the famous journalist Andrey Babitsky.
In 2000, Babitsky, working for the American Radio Liberty, made reports from Chechnya with sharp criticism of the Kremlin. In the same year, Babitsky was forced to leave Russia, since his activities as a journalist were negatively assessed by Russian society and the authorities. However, at the time of the annexation of Crimea to Russia, Babitsky, already in the Czech Republic and working in the Czech editorial office of Radio Liberty, supported the “Russian Spring” and the entry of the peninsula into the Russian Federation, for which he was subsequently expelled from the editorial staff.
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Valentin Filippov: Hello Andrey!
Andrey Babitsky: Hello.
Valentin Filippov: How does the current situation in Donbass resemble the situation of the first Chechen war? Are there any parallels?
Andrey Babitsky: Well, there are some. Although they are very distant. But nonetheless. The civilian population is suffering from the fighting. It was exactly the same in Chechnya - both in the first and second war. The same thing happens here. Perhaps, besides this parallel, I am not able to find others. In fact, the situation is completely opposite. There they were talking about ethnic separatism. Here it’s the other way around. The International World rose in its defense.
Valentin Filippov: Often opponents of the LDPR of Russia reproach: “You had Chechnya,” Ichkeria. Every time I don’t know who to consider Ichkeria in this situation. On the one hand, a kind of Ichkeria is Donbass in relation to Ukraine, but Ukraine is also a kind of Ichkeria in relation to the Russian world. To the international, supranational community living in our region. Geopolitically, we all live in the same region, surrounded by natural borders. And in this case, Ukraine stands out from the general system.
Andrey Babitsky: Indeed, the ethno-separatist project that Ichkeria was, it rather really resembles Ukraine. Much more parallels can be found between Ukraine and Ichkeria.
In Chechnya, during the first war (in the second the situation changed a little), it was very difficult to judge what percentage of the population supported this government, which came to govern this autonomy as a result of the revolution. We know that the votes of the Russian-speaking population were not taken into account; they did not go to vote. The votes of 300000 Russian speakers who lived in this territory at that moment were not taken into account. In addition, they were largely squeezed out. Already during the fighting. And in front of them.
After all, Dudayev, when the opposition insisted on a referendum, in order to understand in general what the population of all Chechnya wanted, he never went to the referendum. I had a feeling when I worked as a correspondent during the first war that, after all, a very significant part of the population, perhaps the majority, were against secession. They did not really believe that national personnel were capable of managing competently. Build a state. Well, strictly speaking, the collapse that took place under Dudayev before the first war gave rise to very great disappointment. It is within the capabilities of national elites to engage in state building.
I would say that this situation is similar to today's Ukraine. We all understand that a significant number of people not only in Donbass, but also in other regions of Ukraine feel like strangers in this national state.
Valentin Filippov: If we remember Ichkeria-Chechnya. Did Dudayev’s Ichkeria have some kind of state-forming economic project then?
It is clear that one can say, “We are Chechens, we will live separately,” but, as a rule, some kind of economic activity is needed for the existence of a state.
Andrey Babitsky: No. Of course, there was no economic project. At all. Dudayev and his entourage relied on traditions. On adat. They tried to displace modern mechanisms of government by turning to the past. And adat, customary law, is suitable for governing a rural community. Solve problems at her level. Variety. Economic, interpersonal, criminal.
He is not suitable for managing the complex urban structure that Chechnya already had at its disposal by this time. There was Gudermes. It was Grozny. Modern city. And, in fact, the entire control system fell apart into pieces.
As for the economic project, well, there were some semi-criminal ones. For example, Dudayev allowed the population to import goods from Turkey duty-free. From somewhere else. And so these planes flew, loaded with cheap junk, and people traveled and sold it throughout the North Caucasus.
Valentin Filippov: Actually, it turns out to be “Porto Franco”. Imported into the territory of the Russian Federation duty-free, and then you can sell it in the Russian Federation.
Andrey Babitsky: To say that this is an economic project...
Valentin Filippov: This is called the privatization of the state border meter.
Andrey Babitsky: Well, oil. Theft.
Valentin Filippov: Oil theft...
Andrey Babitsky: No economy, of course... During the year of Dudayev’s rule, Chechnya switched to subsistence farming.
Valentin Filippov: Are you sure you’re not telling me about Ukraine right now?
Andrey Babitsky: I said that it is much easier to look for parallels not between Donbass and Ichkeria, but between Ichkeria and Ukraine.
Valentin Filippov: This means that many Maidan leaders were correct in declaring that Ukraine should be an agricultural country. Because we have the best black soils in the World. They usually proclaim that they are the best. And 90% of the world's black soils are in Ukraine. And all the projects in the Odessa port, for example, are trying to invest money in the construction of grain terminals. That is, for agriculture. That is, it is quite possible that Ukraine is moving towards agrarianism... how? Agricultural community - You say?
Andrey Babitsky: I don’t know where Ukraine is going. I have a feeling that the collapse of the country, in all areas, is becoming absolutely irreversible. And this line of degradation that you described, it realizes itself quite clearly. Ukraine is abandoning its industrial potential, and, accordingly, science, which is the basis of any technological civilization. I don't know.
These are different levels of decline, and Ukraine is successfully, very effectively, falling into several abysses at once.
Valentin Filippov: Is there any fault of the top Russian leadership for missing the moment, losing Ukraine, losing the information space, giving in 15 or 10 years ago? And even now. Directly.
I get the impression that Russia is always in a winning situation and can always restore order.
But every month this winning situation is less and less winning than it was a month ago.
And Russia is running out of time.
And Russia, after all, did not check its closest neighbor.
Andrey Babitsky: I didn’t watch it all the way through, that’s absolutely true. And, in fact, the collapse of the Union was such a manifestation of political egocentrism. The former secretaries of district and regional committees simply divided the country, each allotting themselves some section of the national border.
It is clear that Yeltsin had no big business. Ukraine had no meaning for him. He did not quite understand what to do with Russia, which had fallen into his hands.
They constantly say that Russia stands behind the residents of Donbass, that it provoked it, but in reality this is absolutely not the case.
I've been here since last spring. When the events were just beginning. When the fighting was going on in Slavyansk. And I absolutely know. That the pro-Russian NGOs that were created here, they went and begged for money from the Russian embassy. But they didn't receive anything.
We didn't receive anything.
Well, there were some meaningless, tiny amounts for book business.
Valentin Filippov: For kokoshniks :) I know, for kokoshniks :)
Andrey Babitsky: Yes. God forbid, not politics. Russia relied exclusively on the Party of Regions. And when the Party of Regions retired, for natural reasons, when it was pushed aside, it itself withdrew.
That's it!
There are no levers of influence left.
Russia joined the processes that were going on here after all the protests. After all this wave.
She actually began to smuggle weapons. Help somehow.
But it was summer.
The first and most important thing, all this work on arranging and implementing this protest into some kind of structure, was done exclusively by local residents.
Valentin Filippov: Well, sometimes I have the feeling that in the Kremlin, maybe they didn’t think it was necessary? Because they were told: “They’ll take Soledar, it’s agreed there, the weapons are stored there.” That is, it is quite possible that reports were received by the Kremlin, and even some money was taken...
Andrey Babitsky: I think no. Here they began to collect information quite quickly. If Russia had acted the way you describe, it would not have come to the rescue.
There would be no Ilovaisk and other boilers. And, most likely, Donetsk would have been captured today. This threat was absolutely real last summer. And Lugansk most likely would not have survived.
Valentin Filippov: If Russia had not helped with weapons, but simply invited the Ukrainian military to join the Russian army, I think that the Ukrainian army would no longer exist. How it happened in Crimea.
Therefore, God knows.
Russia probably still has some kind of guilt...
Andrey Babitsky: She is not “someone.” She's very serious. This is selfishness born of new times. Selfishness generated by initial capitalism. Semi-gangster. Who only cares about himself.
Of course, this was an absolutely senseless policy of pumping in enormous amounts of money and selling energy resources to Ukraine at reduced prices. In fact, support for any Ukrainian regime, no matter how anti-Russian it may be.
In many ways, it was the Kremlin that helped Ukraine become what it is today. It is Moscow...
There is nothing good about this, because right now, people who live here have to reap the fruits of this myopia. This selfishness.
Valentin Filippov: Fine. But what next? Today, I understand that we are not talking about protecting the entire Greater New Russia. But here, at least, is Donbass. What will happen? Referendum? Issuance of Russian passports?
What could save Donbass from permanent, permanent destruction.
Permanent aggression from Ukraine.
Or just the destruction of Ukraine itself?
Andrey Babitsky: In general, I am not inclined to think in terms of disasters. I assume that in one form or another, life in Donbass will improve. And Russia will not abandon its efforts to improve life. Although these efforts will not always be clear. They won't always be logical. Very often they will conflict with common sense.
Russia, after all, has a lot of management models that are poorly applicable to force majeure circumstances... I think that there is no long-term strategy. Many decisions are situational. Therefore, there will be a lot of mistakes. But I would not generalize each of these mistakes to the point of disaster.
All this is not a global problem.
This is all the price you have to pay to return home. And everyone will recover en masse.
Valentin Filippov: Is this the price, the “high price” that Obama threatens?
Andrey Babitsky: Yes 🙂 And everyone will have to recover together. In fact, the diseases that are characteristic of today's Russia, in comparison with the diseases of Ukraine, are simply the good health of a young man.
To get sick together with Ukraine would mean condemning oneself to death. Fast and painful.
To be sick together with Russia, well, it’s a runny nose :)
If in this system of comparisons.
Valentin Filippov: Well, in general, we’ll just develop immunity. And it will be good.
Thank you. It was nice to meet this legendary figure.
Andrey Babitsky: Please, please :)
Valentin Filippov: All the best, happy.
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