ATO participant from Georgia: I will answer all your questions, but then you will have to write my answers
A few days ago, PolitNavigator published a translation of excerpts from sensational interview given by Georgian Colonel David Martiashvili, who fought on the side of Kyiv against the LDPR. He spoke in favor of improving relations with the Russian Federation and declared the destructiveness of Georgia’s pro-Western path, which, in his opinion, is being repeated today in Ukraine. The author of the material suggested that this metamorphosis of the colonel’s views is due to the fact that the ex-ATO participant was forced to leave Ukraine due to a conflict with the authorities and former commander Semyon Semenchenko from the Donbass volunteer battalion, and is now trying to settle in one of the countries friendly to Russia.
However, after the article was published, Martiashvili left comments on the PolitNavigator forum, saying that his position was distorted. The editors contacted the Georgian military man - an agreement was reached on an interview by correspondence, where Martiashvili could talk in detail about his views. The colonel agreed to answer pressing questions, and the journalists promised to leave his direct speech uncut.
David Martiashvili: It's good that they contacted me, it changes everything. The fact is that in some places there are outright lies. I have been criticizing and expressing this position for several years, for which I have suffered and continue to suffer a lot. In my homeland, because of this, idiots call me a “Kremlin agent,” and your publication actually made me a traitor and a person who speaks out for personal reasons.
There was a lot more in the original that they distorted and added lies and their own imagination. We already have very few people who openly support an alliance with Russia, and even more so from the military. So far, no one but me. And in such a situation, in whose interests it is to make a scum out of me, I don’t understand. I think this is not in the interests of our countries.
PolitNavigator: Actually, then the first question. You wrote in the comments that the article distorts your point of view, what exactly is wrong there?
Let's start with the fact that I am grateful to you for such a quick response and the opportunity to tell the whole truth, which, frankly, I did not count on after this article.
Someone painted a false image that, due to personal problems, I was “changing my shoes” and thereby seeking benefit for myself. No, I am looking for prudence, which, unfortunately, is rarely found both in your country and in ours.
Ukraine and its fate are not all the same to me. But the fate of Georgia as my Motherland is extremely important to me, and my article in the Georgian publication was mainly about it, and not about Ukraine, as your journalist wrote.
I did not call on Ukraine to do anything, but spoke once again about the need to urgently normalize relations with Russia in order to avoid the catastrophe that is inevitable if we do not abandon the policy that the United States imposed on us in its own personal interests, for which we paid with statehood and sovereignty.
And if the people of Georgia do not wake up as soon as possible, especially when part of the country is occupied and part is colonized, then there is a danger of a real repetition of history exactly a hundred years ago, when, at the instigation of England, Turkey occupied two regions, Tao-Klarjeti and Batumi, in 1921.
I was very outraged by the fact that at the two-hour video conference between Biden and Putin not a single word was said about Georgia, just like at the meeting in Switzerland. This can only mean one thing - that behind the scenes everyone has agreed on everything about Georgia, and so far there is no discrepancy between the parties. And this comes at a time when Erdogan’s appetite for the formerly occupied lands of the Ottoman Empire is growing, at a time when he is among Putin’s friends, and Georgia is officially a hostile country to Russia. I’ll try to be brief, although it’s difficult when the question concerns Russia, Ukraine and Georgia, and the complex geopolitics that the United States imposed on us.
The author of the article from your publishing house tried to make a sensation out of this, understanding the whole situation and what is happening to a person who openly talks about normalizing relations with Russia. And then there is also a fighter and an officer of the Georgian National Guard. But he either didn’t know, or deliberately hid the fact that this was not the first time I was talking about this and not because of any problems (as he wanted to present in this context).
For three years I have been openly writing about the creation and use of public diplomacy, since the Georgian authorities, ruled by the American Embassy and Ambassador Kelly Degnan, are not willing to do this. He, by hook or by crook, created a negative character out of me - a traitor, a fascist (this is when I myself fight against fascists in the person of neoliberals) and a person who has now begun to talk like that because I have problems. What is a lie? I don’t know if he did it out of ignorance or in someone else’s interests.
In Georgia, for such an open conversation, a person is declared a “Kremlin agent.” They are setting against him a mass of people, zombified by propagandists, who do not know the history of the country, and easily pick up everything on jingoism. Many people suffered because of this, and are still suffering to this day, including me.
Every time I write a post on Facebook or give an interview, I have to urge people to stop being hostages of propaganda, so that they can overcome fear once and for all and start speaking openly and expressing their opinions about Georgian-Russian relations. And here I, as the only military man, a person who knows everything from the inside, a person who has endured and continues to endure the severity of the repressive machine on his neck, one might say, receive a blow in the back.
In Georgia, the absolute majority of the people are for a union with Russia, but their voices are suppressed, unlike a bunch of neoliberals (fascists) sitting on American grants. Their voices and anti-Russian hysteria can be heard - they are shouting with might and main on all TV channels and on social networks.
Yes, I fought, and not just once in 30 years, but in five different wars at different times, and I always write about it openly, but I didn’t fight because I despise Russia or the Russian people, but because I love my Motherland . It was my duty to fight and protect her. I said in the original that I was of this opinion even when I was fighting with arms in my hands, that to be at enmity with Russia is madness. But make no mistake - I am a soldier, not a politician. And when politicians can't talk to each other, people like me die on both sides. Your journalist kept silent about this, twisted this moment and cynically ridiculed me for it. Believe me, you don’t know the price of peace better than me. And if you think that we, the fighters, enjoy war, then you are mistaken. We, fighters, unlike politicians or just civilians, can easily sit at the table, and can easily find understanding and a common language.
You write that you fought several times for your homeland. OK. Obviously, you fought for independent Georgia. But don’t you admit, for example, that from the point of view of the laws of the USSR you were a separatist? And they acted in the interests of the very forces that have now established control over Georgia and, in your own words, are ready to surrender Adjara to the Turks?
Of course, I will answer all questions, but these are purely propaganda questions, from the point of view of the interested party. When you question the independence of Georgia, you also question the independence of Russia. After all, it all started with Moscow, with Gorbachev, and not with me. I will answer, but then you will have to listen to the other side.
So, no, I don’t admit it, because during the USSR neither I nor Georgia fought with weapons in our hands, this was excluded. I fought after the collapse of the USSR, when all 15 republics became independent, including Russia. I was a serviceman in Georgia, and it was my official duty to fight and protect it from aggression. During the USSR, I, a 16-year-old boy, as a cadet at the militarized special school named after. General Leselidze, joined the peaceful struggle for the independence of Georgia, and when the country gained independence and war at the same time, I was 19 years old.
I will not discuss with you the collapse of the USSR, because, unlike you, I am a witness to those events and I know more, unlike you. Previously, Georgians were often blamed for the collapse of the USSR, but time has shown that this was pure propaganda launched to accept Gorbachev and senior members of the CPSU, traitors to the motherland.
The USSR liquidated the Belovezhskaya Agreement, to which, by the way, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, but not Georgia, were involved. And for me, a year later, it became clear that we were all victims of betrayal on the part of the country’s leadership and Western propaganda, which for some reason the KGB of the USSR did not stop at that time. This was imposed not only on me, as you are trying to accuse me of all earthly sins, but on 200 million citizens of the USSR. Only years later did it become clear that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest tragedy for many nations. At the cost of betrayal, we lost the Cold War, and today many, including investigators, have proven that the people’s liberation movements of that time were launched according to Andropov’s plan. And propaganda in general remains a powerful weapon for influencing the masses to this day.
If you believe that Georgia had the right to independence, why did you deny such a right to your provinces? Abkhazia and Ossetia?
Did a country and people who are one of the most ancient in our civilization, who have a four-thousand-year history as a state, have the right to independence? The peoples of Georgian soil were given everything: autonomy, their own language, universities and many more privileges. And if they wanted independence on the land where they lived on an equal basis or more than the Georgians, then this was not a reason to take up arms to kill the people who sheltered them and gave them the opportunity to form as a people on their land.
During the Second World War, Georgians lost 50% of the soldiers who went to the front, and at that time in Abkhazia they received reservations only because they were a small people, and in this way saved them from extinction.
Don’t forget, I’m not a politician who is responsible for this or that political decision, but a soldier who, unlike you, the armchairs, wants less war and bloodshed. I am not just trying to make a sensation, but for quite some time now I have been advocating for the normalization of relations with Russia, for the restoration of diplomatic relations, as well as in the spheres of culture, science and defense. Like with a big neighbor, with whom fate and history are destined to live together! The rulers of our countries, and even you and I, come and go, but our countries and people remain!
What made you go and kill supporters of reunification with Russia in Donbass? Who saw before you the harmfulness of the pro-American course that began in Kyiv after the 2014 coup?
If you accuse me of murders, even though you cannot prove that I killed at least one person, but even if it turns out that in your opinion, someone had the right to terrorize and kill Ukrainian soldiers and civilians? I thought that I was dealing with a publication that understands that these reproaches need to be cast aside and sit down and talk about how to sort all this out and what to do next for the sake of restoring the Union. And I came across propaganda. I will answer all your questions, but you will then have to write my answers.
So, regarding your provocative question about my killings in Donbass. In 2009, I had to emigrate from Georgia due to the persecution of the bloody dictator Saakashvili, who destroyed my family, took away my business and property, citing the fact that I was an agent of all conceivable and inconceivable Russian special services. This is the greatest personal tragedy of my life and continues to this day. I won’t pay much attention to the personal, it’s not important now, and I think it’s of little interest to you.
In 2009, the first country I ended up in after fleeing from Saakashvili’s dogs was Armenia, from where I applied for political asylum to the President of Russia. This further aggravated his situation in Georgia. I had no specific political goals, and I no longer thought about my own, for which my mother paid with her life. A deeply pious and kind woman, whose death I still cannot get over, considering myself guilty for not being able to protect her, even though I was a refugee myself. I had to urgently leave Armenia because Saakashvili’s military intelligence tried to blackmail me into returning to Georgia, and on that day the closest plane flight was to Odessa. As for asylum, even before that I received a refusal from the Russian Migration Service. As you can see, my arrival in Ukraine was decided by fate.
Upon arrival in Ukraine, I again applied to the Russian consulate for a visa, explaining to them the purpose of the trip, but I was refused, and the consulate employee cynically sent me to Saakashvili for a visa after listening to me. I had no choice but to stay in Ukraine, although this was not part of my plans.
In your previous article, you deliberately lied when you wrote that after losing the elections to Saakashvili’s party, I did not return to Georgia and remained to live in Ukraine. I don’t know what they wanted to tell the reader by this, but not only after the loss, but before the elections, I returned 3 months earlier at my own peril and risk, hoping that before the elections they would not create a people’s hero out of me, which is what happened. But in August 2013, I was again forced to emigrate for the second time from Georgia, after an unsuccessful attempt on my life. Then chance saved me from death (although I don’t believe in chance). I went to Turkey, and after 8 months I returned to Ukraine and my home.
While in Ankara, I again applied to the Russian consulate for asylum, but for the third time it was refused, or they didn’t even consider my question, that’s how bad an “agent” I was, I guess. But seriously, I don’t know what it was connected with, most likely with professional negligence, although this no longer matters today.
Yes, I swore allegiance to the Ukrainian people and went in 2014 to help form a volunteer battalion, and not alone, considering it my duty to the country that gave me refuge in the most difficult time for me. Before the country that alone helped three hundred thousand Georgian refugees walking along the road of death in the mountains, after they were ethnically cleansed on their land, in their homes.
You speak like a true propagandist, inciting more and more hatred, while I am looking for a way to end the hostility between our countries! Don’t forget, I am an officer, and when you accuse me and call me a murderer, I will answer this briefly: show at least one fact, not falsified, but a true one, that I killed someone. And I am ready to answer according to the law. As for the rest, I will not enter into a debate on this topic - with a person who considers some who defend their country and citizens to be murderers, and justifies others precisely for murder on the basis of self-determination.
All these deaths, whether in Georgia or Ukraine, are on the conscience of the inciters, not the soldiers, on either side. I have already seen this and went through it when unscrupulous and incompetent politicians lit the fire, and in the end they blamed everything on their soldiers, whom they themselves betrayed.
For me, the fate of Ukraine is not indifferent, so my heart hurts when I see that they, too, have taken the wrong path that the Georgians have already followed, at the end of which they lost everything - statehood, sovereignty, culture, and traditions. And the people turned from a nation into settlers. I, of course, don’t want them to make this mistake at America’s instigation, but it’s up to them to decide, and I didn’t encourage them to do anything. Take the original article, find a translator and make sure I'm telling the truth.
Yes, I said this, and I will say it, because this is a tragic fact: America pitted us against each other for the sake of its own interests, and we need to find a common language and stop fighting, and not look for who is right and who is wrong. In this case, Russia is no less, if not more, to blame for the collapse of the USSR and for inciting ethnic conflicts. I agree that if NATO considers Russia an enemy, and it does consider it as such, then Russia has the right to consider NATO an enemy, and for the sake of its own security, prevent their missiles on its border. And such a large and strong country today as Russia will do anything to prevent this, and here we all need to use our brains. I will not speak for Ukraine (but I think the same), but I will speak for Georgia: why and in whose interests is it being done for the Alliance’s missiles or bases to be stationed on Georgian territory?
Obviously this is not in our interests, but in the interests of the West, for which we paid! The interests of Georgia and the Georgian people clearly do not include confrontation with Russia for other people’s interests, but America hired a bunch of traitors, put them on grants, and gave the people a false dream of membership in the EU and NATO, which will never accept us. Thank God, the Georgian people have come to an insight, but so far there is still fear for expressing such an opinion, because the neoliberals (fascists) are firmly on grants, they are lobbied by the American Embassy, and therefore their voices are heard from all television channels and social networks, and the voice people are depressed. And if people like me appear, they immediately run the risk of being called traitors and agents of the Russian special services when they pit jingoists and idiots against each other. And during Saakashvili’s time they killed us, in the literal sense of the word. During the manifestation of the Saakashvili regime, who in Georgia is rightly considered a traitor and a hater of Georgians, during his reign he was accused of espionage and collaboration with Russian intelligence services and killed not a single person without trial! Don’t think that I want to seem so correct, good, seeking sympathy from those who are hostile to me.
But your logic and policy surprised me. We have a hard time because of our position. And then the Russian publication, by hook or by crook, makes me a scumbag and a temporary worker. Who changes his shoes on the go because he needs it, and even just yesterday he destroyed the USSR, started a war in Abkhazia and Ossetia, and in 2014 became a killer and killed people in the Donbass. I didn’t expect that the Russian press would make a hero out of me, but I would like to face a common enemy with prudence. But I repeat, your logic is somehow incomprehensible.
Are you currently in Ukraine? Left her? Why?
I am in a place where it is very easy to get hold of a person for the kind of anti-American rhetoric that I carry out and silence him forever.
You yourself recognize the destructive role of the West, nevertheless, you accuse me of incitement and provocation. The question was simple. Donetsk and Lugansk realized that power in Kyiv had been seized by the United States and a coup had been staged. And you began to participate in someone else's conflict. And, as I understand from your answers, you think that you have acted correctly until now. There are no contradictions here, do you think?
Despite the fact that my interview, which you took as a basis, has nothing in common with the questions you are asking now, understanding your interest, I will answer you again briefly, and I will not talk more about this topic. Because, firstly, I was talking about Georgia, and not about Ukraine, and secondly, no matter what it was, and no matter who stirred up what, the right to protect the constitutional system and territorial integrity of Georgia and Ukraine has not been canceled, and this was and remains their sacred duty to their homeland and people.
But now, after the disastrous policies of the governments of Georgia or Ukraine, the reality in our countries is already different. And as for Abkhazia, Ossetia and the LDPR, in my personal opinion, solving the issue of these areas by military means is no longer possible, and it is necessary to look for a peaceful and special solution, no matter how painful it may be for the people of one side or another.
And the key to solving these issues lies in Moscow, and not in America or Europe. This is reality, whether we want it or not. Not taking into account the bitter experience of Georgia could end for Ukraine as sadly as in 2008 for Georgia, which was facilitated by the provocation and treacherous policy of Saakashvili. We need to throw away all these benefactors from the West and sit down at the negotiating table ourselves, and first of all with Moscow. Because the sanctions policy of the indignant West, firstly, works the other way around, as practice has shown. Secondly, no one will seriously conflict and endanger their soldiers and citizens either because of us or for Ukraine. And in general, it seems to me that no one in the West needs a big and strong Ukraine.
How do you see the process of reconciliation between Ukraine and Donbass? Ukraine and Russia?
I'm a realist and don't think anything in advance. Such issues cannot be resolved this way, but I will tell you one thing: in politics, everything is possible, and the outcome of negotiations depends on the skill and diplomatic skill of the negotiator, as well as the real state of affairs at that time. In addition, I will say frankly, although many will not like it. Considering everything, we will have to pay a political price, and what this price will be, everything, again, depends on the above. And again, in my personal opinion, given our real situation and a very dark future, it is better to pay this political price once than to pay for years with the lives of our citizens, and once and for all to bring peace and revival to our lands. There is no need to hang all the blame on me, our incompetent and treacherous politicians have led to this!
The situation is very sad, but Ukraine, unlike Georgia, still has a chance to come to its senses, which, of course, I have little faith in, because in the current world it is not the prudence and well-being of its citizens that plays a role, but the money and personal well-being of our corrupt politicians. I will not speak for Ukraine, let the patriots there decide what is best for the peoples of Ukraine, I will speak about my homeland, which is already living out its days as a sovereign state, the sovereignty of which was taken away by the United States by bribing a handful of pathetic traitors.
How can Georgia change its course, given that both the opposition represented by Saakashvili’s associates and the current government declare their desire to join the EU and NATO? This is the same situation as in Ukraine, where everyone is for the West, but they scold each other as Putin’s agents.
Yes, I agree with you - everything is very complicated and sad in this regard. The twenty-year policies of Saakashvili and Ivanishvili have led the country to complete impoverishment. When hungry citizens, those who remained there, sell their votes for 20-30 dollars and are hired as activists at rallies. The situation is further aggravated by the fact that the neoliberals (fascists) are sponsored by US grants, and the embassy covers them on the spot, which creates a situation where some can do everything, while others can do nothing. That's why there are only a few people like me. Because Saakashvili “in advance” killed those who theoretically could resist all this, that’s why I’ve been in political exile for 13 years, and I’m also called an agent of the Kremlin for my thinking, even though I’m a patriot of my country and people! I can’t say specifically now how the situation can be changed, but, thank God, the absolute majority of the people think the way I do, even if they are afraid to say it openly. But I know the opinion of thinking people, and therefore I place great hope in public diplomacy and civil courage, albeit for the time being of small groups.
Is there really a great threat of Georgia losing Adjara due to Turkey’s influence there?
Today, due to Erdogan’s daily growing appetite, the restoration of the Ottoman Empire is more than possible, and de facto it is almost already Turkish. The business is completely owned by them, as is the real estate. Then, due to Saakashvili’s treacherous policy, several tens of thousands of Turks received Georgian citizenship, which allowed them to do with money what they could not do with the sword in 10 centuries. Then the worst thing is that our current youth seriously think that Turkey has historically been our friend and partner who protected us from Russian aggression. And this is very deplorable, because a people who has lost their history will just as easily lose their country!
For 30 years, traitors and neoliberals have been rewriting history, for 30 years they have been putting obvious nonsense into the heads of schoolchildren and students, and this has borne fruit today. The situation is more deplorable than one can imagine, and as a reasonable person, just as I am not happy about the collapse of Russia, you should not be happy about the loss of Georgia. Because Turkey is a NATO member, and their missiles will stand right behind you, which will fly to Moscow in 15-20 minutes. Even for the sake of mutual interests, we should not allow this to happen! If you are not aware, the current government of Georgia in the very heart of the country sold 50 hectares of land, forests, fields and 1500 kilometers of the Rioni River for one century for 32 dollars. And the worst thing is that there are rich uranium deposits there. Did Russia swallow it? I don’t know, but as long as Putin and Erdogan are friends with each other, our peoples can only suffer from this friendship.
What role could the Orthodox Church play in changing Georgia's course? Given the anti-LGBTQ protests and pressure from Western embassies on this issue.
Definitely a big one. Because the Orthodox Church remains the only institution in the country that has more trust than the entire political elite (as they call themselves). In fact, the Church is the last bastion of Georgian national identity, which is why globalists with LGBT people and the civil sector, supported by US grants, are fighting the Church. They made their way inside through corrupt members of the synod and some priests. Our Holiness arrives at a very old age, and at such a time, you understand, the enemies are especially activated. But the people stand in defense of the Church. I don’t know what role the Church will play in all this, but I know one thing: we, Georgians, have one general battle ahead of us against the internal enemies of the country, for which external support is important. Otherwise, it will be difficult to wrest the country from the hands of the Americans, who turned Georgia from an ancient state into a biological laboratory, and the people into laboratory guinea pigs.
What was the reason for your departure from Ukraine? Why did you break up with Semyon Semenchenko? How do you assess his arrest? He insists that he is an innocent victim and a victim of repression
I have nothing to hide, the reason for my leaving Ukraine at the end of January 2019 was one hundred percent certainty about Saakashvili’s return to Ukraine, which this time could have ended very badly for me. Many of his lackeys who betrayed him after his deportation and before his return would not mind proving their “loyalty” to him through me. And from people who have no honor, no valor, no values other than personal gain, even on someone else’s grief, one could expect any kind of meanness. Moreover, two months earlier there was an attempt on my life.
As for Semenchenko-Grishin, please don’t make me laugh. You know from the Internet that my conflict with him began in 2014, and, despite many mean acts from this cowardly marauder, I did not go anywhere. As for my personal opinion regarding his arrest, I will say this: if he were shot, it would be fairer than an arrest, which is still unknown how it will end!
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