“The bloodless return of the South-East did not work out. A new stage is beginning in the game around Ukraine.”

Russia was unable to bloodlessly return the South-East of Ukraine in the spring of 2014 following the example of Crimea, since both Donbass and Odessa were significantly Ukrainized during Soviet times. However, the game around Ukraine is not over – a new stage is now beginning. Likewise, not everything is hopeless for Transnistria. About this in an interview with a columnist “PolitNavigator” to Valentin Filippov said the director of the Institute of CIS Countries Konstantin Zatulin. Today the second part of the conversation is published, the first part can be read and watched here by following the link.

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Valentin Filippov: Russian Spring. That's the thing with Odessa. It worked only in Donetsk and Lugansk. In some form. What to do with Transnistria?

We talked to you once, you said that it was logical to enter Transnistria... and now, what to do with Transnistria?

Which is locked between two hostile states, blocked, and even if... You can feed them, the army... but their entire economic activity is practically blocked.    

Konstantin Zatulin: Well... What to do with Transnistria is, of course, a serious question. And a serious problem. I think that Russia at the previous stage made mistakes with Transnistria that were not related to the Ukrainian crisis. They are connected with our not deep ideas, not deep ones of those who made these decisions, about what the consequences of our wrong policies might be.

I believe that the first-rate stupidity was the disavowal of Igor Smirnov. Creation of a political crisis in Transnistria. Around, there, corrupt authorities. I opposed this, and believed that this should under no circumstances be done in conditions where this state, an unrecognized state, continues to remain in confrontation with Moldova. That Moldova can inevitably take advantage of this. That's what she's trying to do.

You said “between two hostile forces.” Yes indeed. But such an effect arises if everything starts to move, that these forces, on the one hand, the Odessa region, which, after all, is pro-Russian...

Valentin Filippov: She is, of course, pro-Russian. And there were agreements on interregional cooperation with Pridnestrovie, and until 2006 everything was great. And Transnistria was actually part of the Odessa region. Economically.   

But in 2006, the first blockade began. Which is still going on and is only getting stronger.

Konstantin Zatulin: This is where the first mistake was made. Because we turned a deaf ear to this blockade. We had an unfavorable personal relationship with Igor Smirnov. Those who did business with Transnistria. And so they did not see the forest for the trees. Give in to temptation. Well, Smirnov, what can I say, is a complex subject.

Valentin Filippov: Certainly. 

Konstantin Zatulin: She is not at all a pleasant young lady in all respects. And he was inclined to say bad things. And to action. And everything else. But we somehow, too much, at the official level, indulged in all sorts of tastes on this matter. And as a result, they did not react as they should to this “Boston Tea Party” with the re-registration of subjects of foreign economic activity of the Pridnestrovian Republic through Moldova. That is, an actual violation of all previous agreements and an attempt to drag Transnistria into a blockade regime. It was a success. Later we tried to win back, but it was too late.

Now, putting all these circumstances into perspective, what is happening now.

Well, first of all, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the party in Moldova is far from over.

Valentin Filippov: In Moldova - yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: The two sides are hostile, but you now see that the Moldovan European integrators are in crisis. They put their hand in Moldova’s pocket so much, they stole this billion dollars, that certain forces in the West decided to carry out the Georgian scenario in Moldova. Georgian from the time of Shevardnadze. That is, to replace some pro-Western people with other pro-Western ones. That is, they felt that a threat was emerging. Socialist Party. Renato Usatii, Gagauzia. Pro-Russian movements are beginning to gain momentum. Movements for the Eurasian Union.

Valentin Filippov: Well, now even greater Moldovan nationalists will come to power, and that’s it.

Konstantin Zatulin: That's what grandma said just now. The difference between Moldova and Georgia is that there was no such pro-Russian movement in Georgia. In Georgia, at the time when Saakashvili seized power and removed Shevardnadze from power, there was no alternative. And in Moldova it exists. And there are already two rallies. One is a rally of this democratic great national assembly, and the other is a rally of Usatii, the Socialist Party, and so on. And the game is far from over. Then, keep in mind that Moldovans, of course, are hot people, but not as hot as Georgians.

Nobody wanted to die there.

No one wanted to die even for such pompous reasons. There, show off.

Therefore, the game is not played here.

What depresses me, of course, is that Pridnestrovie in this situation now finds itself in a deep internal crisis between one force and another, and here we must admit our guilt. Because, I repeat, we created this situation at the previous stage, actually supporting the uprooting of Smirnov from the political field of Transnistria. But this Transnistria simply has no other history other than the history of Smirnov. And this is very dangerous. You can't do that. I hope, what is my hope, that, despite all the royal cavalry and all the royal army, this is an overstrain on the part of the Moldovan European integrators, on the one hand, this Saakashvili administration in Odessa, which, if activated, they, in fact in fact.....the most logical thing for them and Transnistria is to choose the tactics of strangulation. But this is the flaw of these people, Saakashvili and the rest of the company, that their hands are itching all the time to become heroes.

And they can get into trouble.

Now, if they start some kind of provocation, a completely new situation arises that could turn against them. Just as his provocation in South Ossetia turned against Saakashvili.

Valentin Filippov: That’s the point: Russia needs all the time for something completely out of the ordinary to happen, and suddenly. So that some kind of reaction occurs.

Sometimes I think so.

Konstantin Zatulin: Well, you know, I once came up with my own version of the national idea. After all, we had a period in Russia under Yeltsin, when even Boris Nikolaevich sent a whole group of his advisers to Blizhnaya Dacha in Volynsky to write a draft national idea.

Valentin Filippov: Yes, Pelevin wrote good books about this.

Konstantin Zatulin: Yes. This group was headed by Satarov. The then assistant to the president. A man who is proud to belong to a noble Hasidic family. Who considers Alexander Nevsky a fiend of evil. Because he did not allow us to unite with enlightened Europe in the thirteenth century. And so on.

That is, a person as far from the national idea as one can imagine.

I have my own version of the national idea.

I developed it during this endless struggle for the Black Sea Fleet. It’s just that the example of the Black Sea Fleet is an example when people resist when everything seems lost. After all, what is the significance of the Black Sea Fleet? Our gratitude to him.

When everything has already been divided.

At this moment, Kravchuk issued a decree that the Black Sea Fleet was Ukrainian.

And the sailors refused to re-oath.

When everything is lost, when you have already been written off, this is the idea of ​​Russian resistance, this happened in 1812, in 1941 and before our eyes in 1991-92 with the Black Sea Fleet.

Therefore, it will be this way and it will not be any other way. Unfortunately. Because we cannot become... I personally cannot become a tall, thin, blue-eyed blond. And we in Russia cannot renounce our genetic self. This is the only way we manifest ourselves in the most difficult situations.

Well, look! We were backed up against the wall. In fact, on the eve of this wonderful UN session. Look what Putin did with all this.

Valentin Filippov: You know, I understand. Once upon a time in my childhood, Odessa Chernomorets always received the annual “Thunderstorm of Authorities” prize. He didn't play particularly well, but he beat all the top-ranked teams. His distribution was approximately this way, if you look at the standings, those teams that are higher than Chernomorets, he beat them all in this championship. Those below him - he lost to them all. And the fans at the stadium, they weren’t chanting “well done,” not “puck.”

They chanted “miracle!”

They demanded a miracle, and Chernomorets did miracles :)

Konstantin Zatulin: No, well, you can, of course, find a lot of words of condemnation about this, and say that this is an excessive waste of strength and energy. But there is no other way.

Valentin Filippov: Well, that's who we are. You can't do anything.

Valentin Filippov: I now live in Crimea, in Sevastopol. It's been about a year and a half now. After the Russian Spring in Odessa, it was so successful that we all left. Here. The local population had such high, high expectations. Well, I’m just saying: guys, everything is fine, you’re in vain. But even I notice such things. Somehow it was expected that the development of the ports of Crimea, in particular Sevastopol, would begin. Sevastopol, in my opinion, is the deepest port. Well, at least there are conditions for its deepening.

That is, he could easily replace Odessa.

This probably means that some kind of military base must nevertheless be developed.

That is, like an unsinkable aircraft carrier. Yes?

I don’t see where are these thousands of planes, where are these aircraft repair hangars, where are the jobs in these hangars?

I'll tell you more.

Look, it's such a small thing. There are a lot of ports in Crimea. They all require reconstruction, development, restoration. Somewhere it is all outdated. Previously, in the Black Sea basin, this was all done by ChernomorNIIproekt; all this is located in Odessa. There is the Water Institute, which was once the only one in the country.

Konstantin Zatulin: Once upon a time, the Black Sea Shipping Company was located there.

Valentin Filippov: Yes. Now there are in St. Petersburg and Odessa. It turns out that all the offices that were involved in the development and construction of ports are Ukrainian, they remained there. Someone has to do this. Here in Crimea they haven’t even opened a university to train specialists in hydraulic engineering and shipbuilding. That is, these specialties are not available in universities here. And it doesn’t occur to anyone that they urgently need to be opened.

Konstantin Zatulin: No. As for “it doesn’t come to mind,” this is a completely pessimistic conclusion. Well, first of all, don’t shoot the tapper, he’s doing what he can.

Valentin Filippov: This is yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: Certainly. If you know, I took such a desperate step last year. In general, I’m no longer supposed to take desperate steps. I'm not a boy, right? In politics.

Valentin Filippov: Yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: I was co-chairman of a committee in the First State Duma when I was 35 years old.

Valentin Filippov: We know your biography, we know.

Konstantin Zatulin: I smelled of sulfur and, as it were, I was not to be messed with. During this time, of course, more than 20 years have passed. And this was my highest political achievement. So, last year I took such a desperate step: I nominated myself as a deputy of the Legislative Assembly of Sevastopol.

Valentin Filippov: I remember.

Konstantin Zatulin: You know, I lost this election. I just fell between two chairs. One chair was called Menyailo, the other chair was called Roan. But to a greater extent, even Menyailo had nothing to do with it, but Chaly definitely had something to do with it. Because, as it turns out, heroes want to walk alone.

Valentin Filippov: Yes Yes Yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: They don't want to go with a group. Therefore, it is imperative to destroy any attempt. So, why am I saying this? What was the motive? And the motive was that I perfectly understood, as a historian, that between the desires and euphoria that accompanied the Russian Spring in Crimea, and the reality of joining Russia, there are very serious pitfalls, very serious problems.

Here I will give you a not entirely correct example with the Caucasian war. While in the Caucasus, my Cossack ancestors coexisted with mountain tribes, stole each other’s brides, sometimes celebrated weddings together, celebrated funerals together - everything seemed to be normal.

Then we succumbed to the temptation to go save the Georgians and Armenians and included them in Russia. And it was necessary to lay communications through this very North Caucasus, and the Empire came to the North Caucasus. With all its rules, with its bureaucrats, with its taxes, with its prohibitions and so on. And this is where it began, this is where the uprising began, which resulted in the Caucasian War.

In my native Abkhazia, several decades after joining Russia, the Lykhta uprising began. Why? Because officials from Moscow and St. Petersburg decided that it was necessary to rid the Abkhazians of such terrible serfdom in 1861. And the uprising took place in 1863. They simply did not know that there had never been serfdom in Abkhazia. And they began to get rid of him. And the Abkhazians were indignant. And such a desire to improve the life of the Abkhazians turned into a terrible tragedy, makhajirism and so on.

What's going on here? Here, after all, there are Russian people. This somehow saves Sevastopol. What is happening here is that orders have come that have never existed in Ukraine. A government has arrived that demands the implementation of tax and other legislation. All bribes have increased by a factor of two. I checked at the traffic police. If this Ukrainian DAI took bribes, then for the first time after Crimea came under the jurisdiction of Russia, they stopped taking bribes. Two months, at a crossroads.

Valentin Filippov: Yes, it happened. Maybe even more.

Konstantin Zatulin: Maybe more. Then they doubled, because the bribe rates in Russia. Well, it’s impossible to imagine that Crimea, having entered Russia, lowered prices in Russia. No, Crimea naturally adopted what was in Russia.

Valentin Filippov: Well, I must tell you, in defense of Russia, in defense of traffic police officers and in defense of everything. The fact is that they have become Russian after all. Because in Russia they may take bribes, but they do not extort these bribes to such an extent. I'm not a car enthusiast, but a drinker. And sometimes I sit somewhere on the embankment, on a bench with a bottle, with a friend, a bottle of strong wine. Not with beer, but with something stronger. Disposable cups, we drink. So in Odessa the fine for this is inexpensive, but every time. And here they’ll come up, talk, and ask you to hide me, that’s the plan. They will probably fine someone. But not everyone and not every time.

Konstantin Zatulin: May be. But I want to say what is the motive behind my decision. There were many different motives. But one of them was, most definitely, a desire, actually knowing Russia from the inside, which in Crimea, of course, they guessed about, but did not know. The Crimeans were returning to the Soviet Union, but they came to the Russian Federation. This is absolutely true. And, of course, they needed to quickly develop immunity to various of our own diseases. There are Ukrainian diseases, and there are Russian ones. And today is the most unpleasant period of adaptation. Of course, shipbuilders will appear. Of course, the ports will also be reconstructed. It’s just that Russia came under sanctions, firstly, and Crimea came under double sanctions due to the fact that it needs to be punished. A port is not only the technical capabilities of receiving ships. We still need these ships to come.

Valentin Filippov: You know, ports take so long to be built and reconstructed, it’s such a long process that by that time not only will the sanctions be lifted, America will fall apart. Ust-Luga has been under construction for 15 years.

Konstantin Zatulin: Maybe, maybe, I'm not arguing. But, as if with great difficulty and the same sacrifices, this all happens. That is, all this eventually makes its way.

But it should be noted that if we also talk about Sevastopol. I worship Sevastopol, and for all 20 years, when I was allowed into Ukraine, and several times I was not allowed in for several years, I went to Sevastopol in order to breathe the air of Sevastopol. It was a city in which I, a Russian person, was proud to be a Russian person. Because people here loved Russia. They still love her. But the question is that when I was in the city of Sevastopol, I didn’t go to kindergartens, schools or residential areas. Naturally, I visited various kinds of monuments and shrines: the Monument to the Scuttled Ships, the Malakhov Kurgan, and so on. Although I saw that some things were dilapidated, some things were unpainted, I still could not imagine the depth of this failure, which, first of all, was in the housing and communal services. For twenty years no one did anything, absolutely nothing. At best, they built mansions and some condominiums there for temporary summer stays.

Valentin Filippov: No, here housing and communal services in general, the horse is not lying around. Even compared to mainland Ukraine. There’s a general impression here...

 Konstantin Zatulin: This was colonial territory. Crimea was viewed as a semi-colony that behaves very suspiciously. As soon as someone appears in Crimea who is somewhat independent, he must be hit on the head. Therefore, the Crimean political elite. In Sevastopol the situation is a little different. But the Crimean political elite are all such saxauls. You understand, they were forced to survive under pressure. The Macedonian dynasties were constantly brought down to them: Dzharty, Mogilev. Before this, Matvienko was in the first year of Yushchenko, Yatsenyuk was the Minister of Economy of Crimea for some time. That is, sometime back in 1994, I met with Kuchma’s assistant, Kravchuk’s assistant, who explained to me popularly and quite frankly what Ukraine’s line would be in Crimea. Crimean Tatars. We need to support them, because Ukrainians do not understand the tasks of the Ukrainian national state, and there needs to be an evil dog in Crimea that will always keep this Russian majority in check and not let it raise its head, will frighten it with all sorts of consequences and conflicts, and so on. . Well, it just turned out later that the Crimean Tatars are people too, and none of them wants to die, just like the Moldovans. Therefore, they folded their banners very quickly. But there was an attempt on their part.

Valentin Filippov: Well, as I understand it, we have already taken a lot of time, but we can talk to you for an infinitely long, long, long time…. Unfortunately, no one organizes any “round tables”. With coffee breaks.

Konstantin Zatulin: Why? I can tell you that our institute contacted and received support from the presidential administration. In August we received, we won the competition, presidential grants for non-governmental organizations, and at the moment, today I held a meeting, we will write the modern history of Crimea.

The latest People's History of Crimea.

Just as part of this, there will be round tables and discussions; we must submit our research in April. What is the main goal and idea, to explain, to show, we got such a lightweight impression that everything happened in one month. In fact, the fact that everything happened in one month was prepared by twenty years of struggle. And the people who are shouting in corners everywhere today, “Where is the Russian “soft power”?”, should actually study the situation as it developed in Crimea. This is where “soft power” comes in. Here she showed herself.

Valentin Filippov: Well, the soil here was still good.

Konstantin Zatulin: Yes. The soil was Crimean. Gracious. But note that it sometimes manifested itself contrary to the official policy of the Russian State. Throughout the nineties I was the city madman. In Russia. Because after I was a member of the First State Duma and spoke out from certain positions, precisely in connection with the Crimea, with Sevastopol, with the Black Sea Fleet, they pointed a finger at me and said - “this is this scoundrel provocateur who is trying to destroy the centuries-old friendship of the Russian and Ukrainian people.”

Valentin Filippov: Well, something like this.

Konstantin Zatulin: Yes. You understand? In 1996, despite this centuries-old friendship, I wrote an article “Test by Ukraine” in Nezavisimaya Gazeta. It remains software. He said that if we do not achieve the federalization of Ukraine, if we do not contribute to the Russian language becoming the second state language, if we do not protect the unity of the Russian Orthodox Church, then none of our assets, our gas processing and oil refineries, which we will be able to get there, on Ukraine will not be saved from the split between Russia and Ukraine.

Valentin Filippov: You turned out to be right, and it’s not clear what to do now.

Konstantin Zatulin: No. All clear. But now, what is clear, first of all. Firstly, it is clear that Novorossiya pays for Crimea.

Valentin Filippov: It goes without saying.

Konstantin Zatulin: In the case of Novorossiya, different forces emerged both inside Ukraine and inside Russia. People who, perhaps cynically, believe that this is simply a distraction from Crimea, since they decided to return Crimea, and agreed to its return. And people who believed that Novorossiya was the beginning of the reformatization of Ukraine.

Note that Putin in a certain way recognizes that Donetsk and Lugansk belong to Ukraine for one reason. He wants Donetsk and Lugansk to return to the common political and legal field with a special status, and together with the rest of Eastern Ukraine they form some kind of force that will prevent Ukraine from turning into a notorious anti-Russian state.

Here you are for me... You lived in Ukraine, please tell me. You, of course, contact your friends and acquaintances. The current syndrome is anti-Russian, anti-Russian; in your opinion, is it ineradicable?

Valentin Filippov: I do not know. This can be eradicated, but for this it is necessary, as Lenin said, to take the telegraph, build bridges, everything that is required...

Konstantin Zatulin: Absolutely right! To do this, it was necessary not to stop on September 5, 2014 near the city of Mariupol, but to move on, for example...

Valentin Filippov: Here !!!!!

Konstantin Zatulin: But, hanging on their hands, they began to say that Poroshenko is sane, you can deal with him, that he is there for show, that he belongs to the bourgeoisie.

Valentin Filippov: Well, where is “possible”?

Konstantin Zatulin: There are people who like to raise this topic here in Russia. “God forbid, there are any additional sanctions. Oh, what will happen? – And all that will happen, you know, seven troubles, one answer...

Valentin Filippov: Everything has already happened.

Konstantin Zatulin: Therefore, in this sense, the game is not yet done at all, I am sure that now the next stage of this game is coming. Of course, somewhere in Russia there is a glimmer of hope that Ukraine will come to some kind of finale, because... Because everything is bad in the economy, and so on, and so on. Here this thought is often used to avoid making decisions.

Valentin Filippov: Well, you know, I kind of feel deceived. And deceived. Because throughout 2014, I was reading Moscow analysts and also publishing something, some of my own…. But it was all logical. That “right now, we will crush Ukraine by winter, here our troops will march here, and here they will run out of money, and here they will run out of gas.”

You are asking whether it is now possible to somehow remove anti-Russian sentiments... Moreover, anti-Russian not only from the Ukrainian comrades,

Konstantin Zatulin: Yes, and Russians...

Valentin Filippov: Yes, from the Russian side. Who feel that they have been betrayed. I don't even know.

They need to somehow explain why?

How about Vysotsky’s song – “And the tankers cried on the armor of their vehicles”...

Why are they killing our people over there, and these are standing across the river and waiting. There was no order.

We need to explain why we stood and waited.

Konstantin Zatulin: You must understand what is looming. For people who made decisions in Moscow.

Valentin Filippov: When they say that it was “overhanging” and “chessboard”, this is not clear.

Konstantin Zatulin: They are obliged to think not only, this is history, not only what is in Ukraine. But they are responsible for Russia. They are chosen here. They understand that the deterioration of the situation in Russia could bring completely different forces to power here. And they are obliged to make a discount on this.

Valentin Filippov: But we must understand that this is not a Civil War in Ukraine. This is the Civil War in the Soviet Union.

Konstantin Zatulin: I just want to say that there are some mutual expectations, and, of course, Ukraine expects that together with America, mainly through the hands of America and the West, Russia will be forced to do something, will be strangled, it will begin to fall apart, these are the most ecstatic...

Valentin Filippov: Yes, yes, yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: This means “she won’t stand it, we’ll now hang the Donetsk-Lugansk yoke around her neck and disown them,” and so on.

Valentin Filippov: And through the court 50 billion :)

Konstantin Zatulin: In Russia, in turn, they think that Ukraine will crack now, burst, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, and so on.

In reality, neither one nor the other will happen.

Ukraine, of course, will be helped to cope with some problems for their authorities, because, well, Ukraine is now the spoiled child of the West... Of course, no Ukrainians will become richer from this, it is clear that they will become poorer, but in order to maintain this power, some efforts will be made.

Question for us.

Are we able to pursue a flexible policy in Ukraine, despite all the circumstances?

Valentin Filippov: No! Unable.

Konstantin Zatulin: I am not convinced of this, because if we were completely unable, then Crimea would never have returned to Russia.

Valentin Filippov: Somehow, this policy doesn’t seem so flexible to me. They just took it and took it away. All!

People like you have been preparing this for a long time, they called you crazy, you were not allowed to cross the border, you quarreled the Ukrainian and Russian peoples, that is, different attitudes…. By and large, you did not have an assignment from the KGB to deal with all this.

You were doing this.

There were a lot of other people doing this.

Occupying various positions, being different in income and profession. Everyone did a little bit of this.

Then such a day came. When it turned out that some lieutenant was also doing this, and some general was doing this. And they took it and started doing it.

And there, somewhere in the Kremlin, a man sits and says: “Damn. I’ll probably say that this is on my orders, otherwise it won’t turn out nicely.” Here….

I have this feeling.

And when they told me, one day, one there at the very beginning, when Crimea was happening, one all-knowing guy in Odessa, like a close one... he said: “Accurate information, we were leaked, Russia will not interfere. There is an order from Putin!”

I told him one thing: “The Russian army is standing there now, whatever some lieutenant comes to mind, that’s what will happen.”

In general, in an amicable way, you should have called on the phone and said in Putin’s voice: “I’ll be brief!” Attack!

Konstantin Zatulin: You have the Odessa version of the story :) Well, okay, I’ll say one thing. One person called, while I was standing next to this person, we agreed to call together. We dialed for a long time, then we got through, and the one with whom he was on the line…. Well, they told him that we were trying to get through to him, it was February 24th to be exact. And such a conversation began.

We - we need to support the people there... Ukraine, coup, fifth-tenth.

That person - is there anyone there to support?

And then we say: - well, here is Sevastopol, here is Crimea.

And on the same day there was a meeting of the Security Council. But what we really didn't know... We didn’t know that this man was also playing with us. As it should be. In Game. Because he gave the order to load onto the ships on the twentieth.

Valentin Filippov: Well, I know that Crimea used to be... They told me here that it all started here before.

Konstantin Zatulin: That he gave instructions to load on the twentieth. And one wonderful minister, who is a hero in all respects, canceled it. And in the film that you probably saw, “Crimea. The story of return,” the president says a very interesting phrase. He said: “I ask, where are ours? And they answer - but I stopped them. - How did you stop? “Oh, they’ve already been sent back.”

Here, you see, this is the situation.

No, well, everything was here, everything was here, but, ultimately, everything worked out, in connection with Crimea, as successfully as possible, and in all respects exemplary. In fact, not a drop of blood...

Valentin Filippov: Yes! That's why we all hoped.

Konstantin Zatulin: Not a drop of blood was shed, but Donetsk, Lugansk and Eastern Ukraine required much more effort, because no Black Sea Fleet stood behind the demonstrators there. Because, unlike Crimea, which remembered the birth trauma of 1954, Donetsk and Lugansk ended up in Ukraine in 1918-20.

Valentin Filippov: And Odessa.

Konstantin Zatulin: And they survived the Soviet Ukrainization. And as a result, by the time of the events, in my opinion, the population was divided into three groups. Unlike Crimea.

One part that wanted to go to Russia. I think 30 percent. No more.

Another part that believed that “we, Donbass, must be respected” - but they did not want to go to any Russia. This is Rinat Akhmetov and his friends.

And the other part is small, which wanted to live in Ukraine, because it took place in Ukraine. She didn't need anything else.

The situation is completely different than in Crimea.

We had to work on this, but we were not given time for this.

And we didn’t have as many opportunities from within as we had in Crimea.

Valentin Filippov: I wanted to tell you these two things. They gave you a T-shirt at the art song festival in Sevastopol, it turned out to be small. This, you know, is very significant. You are a person of such size that you probably don’t need to be in the Legislative Assembly of Sevastopol. You evaluate them from the outside; you have experience compared to them. And they are boys :)

I wanted more... I had a question, I’m not asking it, I’ll just point it out.

Konstantin Zatulin: Ask!

Valentin Filippov: Set?

Konstantin Zatulin: Well. Ask :)

Valentin Filippov: It’s about to begin :) First of all, congratulate me. I will receive my certificate tomorrow. About the fact that I know Russian. I passed "speaking". I wrote my name without mistakes.

Here.

And now I have the right to apply for a temporary residence permit in Sevastopol.

I’m simply shocked by this situation with refugees, with migrants from Ukraine.

I was born in Moscow. And only thanks to this they agree to accept my documents. My wife cannot submit her documents, she has no reason to apply, she can only get into the quota, and the quota is small.

Konstantin Zatulin: I study 25 hours a day because, due to my cheap popularity, many people, not knowing my capabilities, whether they exist or not, believe that I have them, so they come here. Someone manages to help. But overall it's a disgusting situation. If you know a little and are familiar with my speeches, long before this situation, I said that we should not just investigate whether you were born in Moscow or in Lugansk. We simply have to develop dual citizenship when there was no conflict. If we, instead of….. at all… Do you know what the answer to all this is?

I say - we must give Russian citizenship to Ukrainian citizens who want it! If we had opened these floodgates, then a third, if not half, of the citizens of Ukraine would have been citizens of Russia by the time of this coup.

Valentin Filippov: Yes.

Konstantin Zatulin: We would also think about whether they could bomb Donetsk and Lugansk in this situation. That's the price. But we have very wise economists here who say: “Oh, they will sit on our necks, they will get our pensions, they are ours...”... something else.

Valentin Filippov: Listen, but you can limit...

Konstantin Zatulin: Limit. Absolutely right. Well, I’m saying all this too.

Valentin Filippov: Young people, women and children come.

Konstantin Zatulin: You don’t conscript people into the army twice. If a person with Russian citizenship at the same time as Ukrainian, lives in Ukraine and served in the army there, comes to Russia, and they tell him: “Go, serve in the Russian army.” The same thing doesn't happen.

Valentin Filippov: Well, in Israel they force you to.

Konstantin Zatulin: This doesn't happen with us. And this could be spelled out in the citizenship law. Write: if you have two citizenships, and you pay pension contributions to funds in Ukraine, then you cannot apply for a Russian pension. But citizenship is completely different, it is an act of expression of will, it is self-identification, it is a clue. I managed to prove this in Abkhazia and Ossetia. Here's the result. After all, when the story began in Abkhazia and Ossetia, they said - we are protecting our citizens. But here we could not say this, because these citizens were not there.

Valentin Filippov: In this case, I’m not even interested in Ukraine anymore. Russian people come, Russian children come. You pay some kind of maternity capital. Here is a woman with a child who came to you, with a future citizen of Russia, with a Russian nationality. Damn, okay... Case ten.

Konstantin Zatulin: No, on this score I will tell you that there is an absolute coincidence of points of view, and we can talk about it for a long time, and we still have stupid things in our laws. And how is it all, this stupidity was carried out. And at first it was considered fashionable to support this stupidity, because our citizenship should be such that it would never be obtained like American citizenship. And so on.

Valentin Filippov: There are rumors here. Unverified information. There are rumors that citizenship is now being taken away from local students. That is, they come to paste another photo into their passports...

Konstantin Zatulin: There are episodes due to the fact that students from Ukraine who studied at Crimean universities were temporarily registered. On this basis they received citizenship. And now someone wise has noticed this and says: How can this be?

Valentin Filippov: I believe that according to this principle it is possible to deprive the entire Crimea of ​​citizenship. I'll tell you why. Because they didn’t take the Russian language certificate, and I’m the only person here who can apply for citizenship. I was born in Moscow and I have a certificate : )

Konstantin Zatulin: There was a principle that the entire Crimea became part of Russia and whoever was registered in Crimea had the right. And if someone, for example, from Crimea went to study at a Kiev university, my daughter or son is there. He returned and wants to live in Crimea, but he was not registered on March 18th.

Valentin Filippov: Yes, it is very difficult for children to obtain Russian citizenship.

Konstantin Zatulin: This mess. Ugliness.

 Valentin Filippov: The fact is that they once said that they were issuing passports. They said that registration is not necessary. Certificate from your employer stating that you work here. That is, such things happened. OK. None of this matters.

Thank you. I really hope that I will find out when you have round tables. If within Crimea, I would gladly participate.

Konstantin Zatulin: On October 5 at 14-00 there will be a briefing for journalists. Well, we don't know for sure yet. It will be known - either the Moscow hotel, or the State Council.

Valentin Filippov: Fine. Well, then I need your help somehow. I'll explain why. I am not allowed into administrative buildings. I am still a citizen of Ukraine.

Konstantin Zatulin: I understand. Well, we'll figure it out somehow. You won't need all this at the Moscow Hotel. Most likely, it will all be there.

Well, all the best to you.

Valentin Filippov: Thanks a lot.

Konstantin Zatulin: Goodbye.